• Word wrapping

    From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Thursday, April 11, 2019 13:10:04
    Re: web message base hacking attempts...
    By: Digital Man to echicken on Thu Apr 11 2019 01:19 pm

    As for the quoted word-wrap issue above, that seems to be caused by using a terminal width > 80 (93 in your case) and an editor (SlyEdit in this case) which always word-wraps at 79/80 columns. <hrm> Something I need to look into.

    I've been wondering if it makes sense to always word-wrap at 79 columns. When saving a message for Synchronet, should there be separate word-wrapped lines, or should it save a long line and let Synchronet word-wrap it? If there's anything in the Synchronet docs about that, perhaps I have missed it.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Thursday, April 11, 2019 14:07:24
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Thu Apr 11 2019 03:10 pm

    Re: web message base hacking attempts...
    By: Digital Man to echicken on Thu Apr 11 2019 01:19 pm

    As for the quoted word-wrap issue above, that seems to be caused by using a terminal width > 80 (93 in your case) and an editor (SlyEdit in this case) which always word-wraps at 79/80 columns. <hrm> Something I need to look into.

    I've been wondering if it makes sense to always word-wrap at 79 columns. When saving a message for Synchronet, should there be separate word-wrapped lines, or should it save a long line and let Synchronet word-wrap it? If there's anything in the Synchronet docs about that, perhaps I have missed it.

    Most BBS editors will do what you're describing (always word-wrap at 79 columns, or something similar) - fseditor.js however word-wraps based on the current terminal width (40, 132, 99, whatever), and that current terminal width (columns) is now saved and shared across the message networks so that the message can be re-word-wrapped nicely on the viewers side.

    I have a couple ideas:
    1. Allow configuration of whether or not to save/distribute the terminal width (columns) on a per-editor basis.
    2. Allow re-wrap of the created message text based on the current terminal width when saving the message, on a per-editor basis. I actually had some ideas along this line years ago and never followed-through.

    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #34:
    We'd love to stand around and chat, but we've gotta sit down in the lobby Norco, CA WX: 68.5F, 37.0% humidity, 9 mph ENE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Thursday, April 11, 2019 14:49:49
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Thu Apr 11 2019 04:07 pm

    Most BBS editors will do what you're describing (always word-wrap at 79 columns, or something similar) - fseditor.js however word-wraps based on the current terminal width (40, 132, 99, whatever), and that current terminal width (columns) is now saved and shared across the message networks so that the message can be re-word-wrapped nicely on the viewers side.

    I have a couple ideas:
    1. Allow configuration of whether or not to save/distribute the terminal width (columns) on a per-editor basis.
    2. Allow re-wrap of the created message text based on the current terminal width when saving the message, on a per-editor basis. I actually had some ideas along this line years ago and never followed-through.

    I could update SlyEdit to do the same as fseditor. Does Synchronet automatically save the terminal width when the user edits a message or is that something the message editor would need to do? I could look at fseditor to see if it's doing that.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Thursday, April 11, 2019 15:25:28
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Thu Apr 11 2019 04:49 pm

    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Thu Apr 11 2019 04:07 pm

    Most BBS editors will do what you're describing (always word-wrap at 79 columns, or something similar) - fseditor.js however word-wraps based on the current terminal width (40, 132, 99, whatever), and that current terminal width (columns) is now saved and shared across the message networks so that the message can be re-word-wrapped nicely on the viewers side.

    I have a couple ideas:
    1. Allow configuration of whether or not to save/distribute the terminal width (columns) on a per-editor basis.
    2. Allow re-wrap of the created message text based on the current terminal width when saving the message, on a per-editor basis. I actually had some ideas along this line years ago and never followed-through.

    I could update SlyEdit to do the same as fseditor. Does Synchronet automatically save the terminal width when the user edits a message or is that something the message editor would need to do?

    Synchronet does it.

    I could look at fseditor to see if it's doing that.

    fseditor.js has been tested at various terminal widths. It word-wraps the created message text based on the current terminal width (less than or greater than 80 is no problem), so we need to store the terminal width in order to nicely re-word-wrap the message when being view or quoted by a user with a different terminal size.

    Since SlyEdit's current behavior is typical of most BBS message editors (assume 80x24 ANSI users only), then I need to accomodate that behavior as well and just I committed a configuration setting (in SCFG) that will do that. As of a few minutes ago, v3.17c will only store the terminal width (columns) if the external editor is configured in SCFG accordingly - and by default, that option is disabled (do not store the terminal width).

    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #33:
    Nigel Tufnel: Well, so what? What's wrong with bein' sexy?
    Norco, CA WX: 67.0F, 32.0% humidity, 2 mph NNW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Thursday, April 11, 2019 18:09:08
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Thu Apr 11 2019 05:25 pm

    fseditor.js has been tested at various terminal widths. It word-wraps the created message text based on the current terminal width (less than or greater than 80 is no problem), so we need to store the terminal width in order to nicely re-word-wrap the message when being view or quoted by a user with a different terminal size.

    I am experimenting with a local copy of SlyEdit that allows typing the message in the entire width of the terminal (rather than
    restricting it to 79 characters). I'm curious if this message comes across okay and looks good, and what happens when this message
    is quoted.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Thursday, April 11, 2019 18:16:42
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Thu Apr 11 2019 08:09 pm

    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Thu Apr 11 2019 05:25 pm

    fseditor.js has been tested at various terminal widths. It word-wraps the
    created message text based on the current terminal width (less than or greater than 80 is no problem), so we need to store the terminal width in
    order to nicely re-word-wrap the message when being view or quoted by a user with a different terminal size.

    I am experimenting with a local copy of SlyEdit that allows typing the message in the entire width of the terminal (rather than restricting it to 79 characters). I'm curious if this message comes across okay and looks good, and what happens when this message is quoted.

    Looks great on Vertrauen (viewing at 80 cols). And I can see from the message header you were using a terminal width of 132 columns at the time you wrote it.

    To disable word-wrap when viewing messages within Synchronet's built-in message reader, enable raw I/O mode using Ctrl-Z and you can see the original message layout.

    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #6:
    David St. Hubbins: He was the patron saint of quality footwear.
    Norco, CA WX: 60.4F, 53.0% humidity, 4 mph ESE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Al@VERT to Nightfox on Thursday, April 11, 2019 22:05:56
    I am experimenting with a local copy of SlyEdit that allows typing the message
    in the entire width of the terminal (rather than
    restricting it to 79 characters). I'm curious if this message comes across okay and looks good, and what happens when this message
    is quoted.

    The above is what I see in BBBS when I view your message. I hope it doesn't get
    reformatted. I'm not sure why it wraps on the second line after the word "than
    and on the forth line after the word "message".

    Just FYI. :)

    --- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Al on Friday, April 12, 2019 00:09:24
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Al to Nightfox on Fri Apr 12 2019 12:05 am

    I am experimenting with a local copy of SlyEdit that allows typing the message
    in the entire width of the terminal (rather than
    restricting it to 79 characters). I'm curious if this message comes across okay and looks good, and what happens when this message
    is quoted.

    The above is what I see in BBBS when I view your message. I hope it doesn't get
    reformatted. I'm not sure why it wraps on the second line after the word "than
    and on the forth line after the word "message".

    Because he wrote it with a terminal in 132 column mode and you're viewing it in a terminal likely in 80 column mode.

    And btw, I'm viewing your message here in 80-colums and it displayed like so: -8<-
    The above is what I see in BBBS when I view your message. I hope it doesn't get
    reformatted. I'm not sure why it wraps on the second line after the word "than
    and on the forth line after the word "message".
    -8<-

    I'm not sure if that's reformatted from the original or not.

    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #21:
    So when you're playing you feel like a preserved moose on stage?
    Norco, CA WX: 52.1F, 80.0% humidity, 0 mph S wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From echicken@VERT/ECBBS to Nightfox on Friday, April 12, 2019 08:16:42
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Thu Apr 11 2019 15:10:04

    I've been wondering if it makes sense to always word-wrap at 79 columns.

    No. IMHO messages should be wrapped at time of output. There's no need to insert line breaks for some arbitrary terminal width when they could instead be inserted as appropriate for the viewing terminal.

    ---
    echicken
    electronic chicken bbs - bbs.electronicchicken.com - 416-425-5435
    Synchronet electronic chicken bbs - bbs.electronicchicken.com
  • From mark lewis@VERT to Nightfox on Friday, April 12, 2019 09:25:18
    On 2019 Apr 11 20:09:08, you wrote to Digital Man:

    I am experimenting with a local copy of SlyEdit that allows typing the message in the entire width of the terminal (rather than restricting it to 79 characters). I'm curious if this message comes across okay and looks good, and what happens when this message is quoted.

    there is still wrapping being forced in the transmitted message :(

    my terminal is currently 165x54...

    http://sestar.synchro.net/temp/20190412-nightfox-echomail-experiment-01.jpg

    it would be a lot better if there was no forced wrapping and my terminal was allowed to wrap according to its extents... i thought we were trying to get away from forced wrapping in transmitted messages and allow the remote side to wrap to its size/settings... somehow this looks to be going backwards...

    quoted wrapping (aka reflow) is another thing...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... I came here to drink and fuck. I'm almost done drinking.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From mark lewis@VERT to Al on Friday, April 12, 2019 09:39:06
    On 2019 Apr 12 00:05:56, you wrote to Nightfox:

    @MSGID: 1:153/757.0 d3596bb7
    @REPLY: 38099.syncprog@1:103/705 2115ccd6
    @TZUTC: -0800
    @CHARSET: LATIN-1
    I am experimenting with a local copy of SlyEdit that allows typing the
    message in the entire width of the terminal (rather than restricting it to
    79 characters). I'm curious if this message comes across okay and looks
    good, and what happens when this message is quoted.

    The above is what I see in BBBS when I view your message. I hope it
    doesn't
    get reformatted. I'm not sure why it wraps on the second line after the word "than and on the forth line after the word "message".

    something along the below path rewrapped your post in the same manner we have been talking about in ASIAN_LINK with maurice... it was easily seen before the quoting because of the leading space added to the lines after the first one... look at this image...

    http://sestar.synchro.net/temp/20190412-TRMB-echomail-intermediate-reformatting-01.jpg

    Just FYI. :)

    --- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)
    SEEN-BY: 10/0 1 14/5 15/0 2 19/36 34/999 90/1 102/401 103/705 116/18 120/302
    SEEN-BY: 120/331 123/1970 153/135 250 757 6809 7715 154/10 203/0 214/22 218/0
    SEEN-BY: 218/1 210 215 401 520 640 700 221/0 226/17 229/107 354 426 452 1014
    SEEN-BY: 230/150 152 240/5832 249/206 317 400 250/1 261/38 100 266/512 267/155
    SEEN-BY: 275/100 280/464 5003 282/1031 1056 290/10 291/1 111 320/119 219 SEEN-BY: 322/757 342/200 393/68 396/45 423/120 712/848 801/161 189 3634/12 SEEN-BY: 5020/932 1042 123/25 150 3634/50 119 123/50 3634/0 18/0 123/0 1/120
    @PATH: 153/757 393/68 229/426 280/464 103/705 218/700 261/38 3634/12

    i'll bet that there is at least system similar to 153/250 in the above path...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... When the going gets tough, everybody leaves.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From mark lewis@VERT to Digital Man on Friday, April 12, 2019 09:39:26
    On 2019 Apr 12 02:09:24, you wrote to Al:

    And btw, I'm viewing your message here in 80-colums and it displayed like so: -8<- The above is what I see in BBBS when I view your message. I hope it doesn't get reformatted. I'm not sure why it wraps on the second line after the word "than and on the forth line after the word "message". -8<-

    I'm not sure if that's reformatted from the original or not.

    it is reformatted from the original and it is being done erroneously by an intermediate system... this is the second path we've found doing this and we're
    tracking in on the faulty software...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Use blow dryer to speed up defrosting TV dinners.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From mark lewis@VERT to echicken on Friday, April 12, 2019 09:41:12
    On 2019 Apr 12 10:16:42, you wrote to Nightfox:

    I've been wondering if it makes sense to always word-wrap at 79
    columns.

    No.

    agreed...

    IMHO messages should be wrapped at time of output.

    output where? from the editor into the temporary disk file? from the file into the BBS? from the BBS into a FTN PKT? between BBSes?

    There's no need to insert line breaks for some arbitrary terminal
    width when they could instead be inserted as appropriate for the
    viewing terminal.

    i think you're saying the same thing i have been saying... don't put in soft-cr
    or hard-cr as line endings... use hard-cr only for paragraph termination... if you're drawing a table or chart, sure, put hard-crs at the end of those lines and hope some intermediate system doesn't wet the sheets reformatting what they
    should not be touching and also hope that your own tosser doesn't reformat them, either... it is absolutely up to the reading terminal to determine where to wrap message test while displaying it before quoting it in a reply or follow-up...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Support Free Trade ... Smuggle!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Friday, April 12, 2019 07:40:33
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Thu Apr 11 2019 08:16 pm

    Looks great on Vertrauen (viewing at 80 cols). And I can see from the message header you were using a terminal width of 132 columns at the time you wrote it.

    Thanks for confirming.

    You had mentioned yesterday that you added a setting in SCFG to enable sending the terminal width in the message header. I didn't have that setting yet since the new Synchronet binaries weren't available.. So is that setting enabled by default in the older builds? Also, I see there are no new Synchronet binaries available today.. The latest sbbs_dev.zip is dated April 11th.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Al on Friday, April 12, 2019 07:41:48
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Al to Nightfox on Fri Apr 12 2019 12:05 am

    I am experimenting with a local copy of SlyEdit that allows typing the
    message in the entire width of the terminal (rather than
    restricting it to 79 characters). I'm curious if this message comes
    across okay and looks good, and what happens when this message
    is quoted.

    The above is what I see in BBBS when I view your message. I hope it doesn't get
    reformatted. I'm not sure why it wraps on the second line after the word "than and on the forth line after the word "message".

    hmm.. I suspect only Synchronet BBSes will re-wrap based on the terminal width in the message header.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From echicken@VERT/ECBBS to mark lewis on Friday, April 12, 2019 10:49:40
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: mark lewis to echicken on Fri Apr 12 2019 11:41:12

    output where? from the editor into the temporary disk file? from the file

    Presentation, be it terminal, web browser, etc. The thing displaying the message decides whether and where to wrap it.

    i think you're saying the same thing i have been saying... don't put in soft-cr or hard-cr as line endings... use hard-cr only for paragraph termination... if you're drawing a table or chart, sure, put hard-crs at

    Yes. Basically keep any line endings included in the source message, whether they are paragraph endings or for formatting a table or whatever.

    your own tosser doesn't reformat them, either... it is absolutely up to the reading terminal to determine where to wrap message test while displaying it before quoting it in a reply or follow-up...

    Yep. Preserve the original as much as possible, mangle it only as needed in the context of viewing.

    ---
    echicken
    electronic chicken bbs - bbs.electronicchicken.com - 416-425-5435
    Synchronet electronic chicken bbs - bbs.electronicchicken.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to echicken on Friday, April 12, 2019 07:42:18
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: echicken to Nightfox on Fri Apr 12 2019 10:16 am

    I've been wondering if it makes sense to always word-wrap at 79
    columns.

    No. IMHO messages should be wrapped at time of output. There's no need to insert line breaks for some arbitrary terminal width when they could instead be inserted as appropriate for the viewing terminal.

    That makes sense.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to mark lewis on Friday, April 12, 2019 07:55:27
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: mark lewis to Nightfox on Fri Apr 12 2019 11:25 am

    restricting it to 79 characters). I'm curious if this message comes
    across okay and looks good, and what happens when this message is
    quoted.

    there is still wrapping being forced in the transmitted message :(

    my terminal is currently 165x54...

    http://sestar.synchro.net/temp/20190412-nightfox-echomail-experiment-01.jp g

    it would be a lot better if there was no forced wrapping and my terminal was allowed to wrap according to its extents... i thought we were trying to get away from forced wrapping in transmitted messages and allow the remote side to wrap to its size/settings... somehow this looks to be going backwards...

    quoted wrapping (aka reflow) is another thing...

    Yeah, I was thinking quoted wrapping wouldn't really work very well due to the added characters at the front of the lines, so I don't think I will support quoted line wrapping. However, I noticed the message I typed does look like it's longer than 79 characters, just that it's not wrapping for the full width of the terminal you're using.

    What BBS software are you using? That doesn't look like the stock Synchronet reader or my reader for Synchronet. If you're using different BBS software, I'm not sure it wraps based on the terminal width sent in the message header.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From mark lewis@VERT to Nightfox on Friday, April 12, 2019 12:22:46
    On 2019 Apr 12 09:55:26, you wrote to me:

    http://sestar.synchro.net/temp/20190412-nightfox-echomail-experiment-0
    1.jpg

    it would be a lot better if there was no forced wrapping and my
    terminal was allowed to wrap according to its extents... i thought we
    were trying to get away from forced wrapping in transmitted messages
    and allow the remote side to wrap to its size/settings... somehow this
    looks to be going backwards...

    quoted wrapping (aka reflow) is another thing...

    Yeah, I was thinking quoted wrapping wouldn't really work very well due to the added characters at the front of the lines,

    it is actually quite easy along with reflow... the problem is what to reflow...
    without any soft-crs or hard-crs, life is much easier... only put hard-crs at the end of a paragraph...

    so I don't think I will support quoted line wrapping.

    reflowing...

    However, I noticed the message I typed does look like it's longer than
    79 characters, just that it's not wrapping for the full width of the terminal you're using.

    right... because of the hard-crs at the ends of those lines...

    What BBS software are you using?

    it isn't a BBS... it is GoldED, a sysop reader that i use on this point system to access the message areas stored in JAM bases and managed by the HPT tosser ;)

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... You unfortunate fellow You are raving.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Al@VERT to Digital Man on Friday, April 12, 2019 10:31:28
    Because he wrote it with a terminal in 132 column mode and you're viewing it in a terminal likely in 80 column mode.

    Ahh.. so that's where the COLS kludge will come in handy.

    And btw, I'm viewing your message here in 80-colums and it displayed like so: -8<-
    The above is what I see in BBBS when I view your message. I hope it doesn't ge >reformatted. I'm not sure why it wraps on the second line after the word "than
    and on the forth line after the word "message".
    -8<-

    I'm not sure if that's reformatted from the original or not.

    No, that looks just like it does here. BBBS is a very minimal software. It works well but I often need to fix zig zag quoting.

    I've noticed in SBBS that isn't needed. SBBS does a good job of presenting message text and word wrapping / reflowing.

    I'm not sure what it is that SBBS does but it makes reading and replying to messages painless.

    --- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Al@VERT to mark lewis on Friday, April 12, 2019 10:36:50
    something along the below path rewrapped your post in the same manner we have
    been talking about in ASIAN_LINK with maurice... it was easily seen before the >quoting because of the leading space added to the lines after the first one...
    look at this image...

    http://sestar.synchro.net/temp/20190412-TRMB-echomail-intermediate-reformattin
    -01.jpg

    I'll take a look at that when i have firefox available to me later on tonight.

    i'll bet that there is at least system similar to 153/250 in the above path...

    Yes there is. That stuff is all front and center now so we'll get that info to James. I'm thinking now that I'll try and get some stuff for you to look at in your e-test area when we have some upgrades to check.

    --- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Al@VERT to Nightfox on Friday, April 12, 2019 10:39:32
    You had mentioned yesterday that you added a setting in SCFG to enable sending >the terminal width in the message header. I didn't have that setting yet sinc >the new Synchronet binaries weren't available.. So is that setting enabled by >default in the older builds? Also, I see there are no new Synchronet binaries
    available today.. The latest sbbs_dev.zip is dated April 11th.

    Your message has a COLS kludge that says "COLS: 80". Is your terminal 80 characters wide?

    --- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Al@VERT to Nightfox on Friday, April 12, 2019 10:41:00
    hmm.. I suspect only Synchronet BBSes will re-wrap based on the terminal widt
    in the message header.

    Yep, that's a brand new kludge that may prove helpfull on the users display.

    --- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From mark lewis@VERT to Al on Friday, April 12, 2019 14:34:08
    On 2019 Apr 12 12:36:50, you wrote to me:

    i'll bet that there is at least system similar to 153/250 in the above
    path...

    Yes there is. That stuff is all front and center now so we'll get that info to James. I'm thinking now that I'll try and get some stuff for
    you to look at in your e-test area when we have some upgrades to
    check.

    ok... please also check that netmails are not getting origin lines added to them... i had one come in here from a mystic system that caused sbbsecho to fall over... the actual reason for the fall over hasn't been determined yet but
    it definitely falls and there was definitely a proper tear line along with an unnecessary/unwanted/unspeced origin line...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... A mighty creature is the germ, though smaller than the pachyderm.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to mark lewis on Friday, April 12, 2019 12:10:29
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: mark lewis to Nightfox on Fri Apr 12 2019 02:22 pm

    it is actually quite easy along with reflow... the problem is what to reflow... without any soft-crs or hard-crs, life is much easier... only put hard-crs at the end of a paragraph...

    so I don't think I will support quoted line wrapping.

    reflowing...

    What is "reflowing"?

    it isn't a BBS... it is GoldED, a sysop reader that i use on this point system to access the message areas stored in JAM bases and managed by the HPT tosser ;)

    Ah. Well I'm not sure how Synchronet handles line wrapping when using GoldEd. I suspect Synchronet does its line wrapping when a user is logged in to the BBS and viewing messages that way. Since GoldEd reads the message database directly, I suspect GoldEd is probably doing is own line wrapping.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Al on Friday, April 12, 2019 12:11:13
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Al to Nightfox on Fri Apr 12 2019 12:39 pm

    is that setting enabled by default in the older builds? Also, I see
    there are no new Synchronet binaries available today.. The latest
    sbbs_dev.zip is dated April 11th.

    Your message has a COLS kludge that says "COLS: 80". Is your terminal 80 characters wide?

    It was at the time I wrote that message you quoted.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Friday, April 12, 2019 12:37:51
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Digital Man to Al on Fri Apr 12 2019 02:09 am

    The above is what I see in BBBS when I view your message. I hope it
    doesn't get
    reformatted. I'm not sure why it wraps on the second line after the
    word "than
    and on the forth line after the word "message".

    Because he wrote it with a terminal in 132 column mode and you're viewing it in a terminal likely in 80 column mode.

    I thought the idea, though, was that the terminal width shouldn't matter, and Synchronet should word-wrap the text to be appropriate for the user's terminal width?

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to mark lewis on Friday, April 12, 2019 12:39:09
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: mark lewis to echicken on Fri Apr 12 2019 11:41 am

    IMHO messages should be wrapped at time of output.

    output where? from the editor into the temporary disk file? from the file into the BBS? from the BBS into a FTN PKT? between BBSes?

    I think he means from the BBS to the user, when the user is viewing the message.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to echicken on Friday, April 12, 2019 13:45:25
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: echicken to Nightfox on Fri Apr 12 2019 10:16 am

    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Thu Apr 11 2019 15:10:04

    I've been wondering if it makes sense to always word-wrap at 79 columns.

    No. IMHO messages should be wrapped at time of output. There's no need to insert line breaks for some arbitrary terminal width when they could instead be
    inserted as appropriate for the viewing terminal.

    Looks like we a have a word-re-wrap of quoted text issue ^^^. :-(

    Regarding your position, I'm not sure what percentage of BBS programs actually support word-wrapping when viewing messages. Synchronet didn't support it until fairly "recently" (2011)!

    Heck, Synchronet didn't even properly line-count (for auto-pause purposes) overly-long printed lines until 2005 (!!). I think the fact that it took over 20 years to even notice the problem indicates that lines > 79 chars are not common on BBS message networks. :-( It probably would not be too hard to capture some line length metrics from current and historic message bases (any volunteers?).

    Sending *all* messages comprised of very long lines into FidoNet or other BBS message networks may result in some grumbling. Right now, Synchronet creates/sends messages with overly-long lines in some cases.

    It may be preferable to store all messages un-wrapped and then optionally wrap/re-wrap messages exported to specific networks (or echoes) at the time of export, based on sysop's configuration preferences (e.g. network requirements). That way, local msg areas or those exported to known-compatible nets could pass around un-wrapped text.

    Some message networking protocols impose maximum line lengths themselves (e.g. 998 chars for SMTP, 512 chars for POP3), so it's possible overly-long lines may be truncated or cause message rejections in some cases if not handled by the transport methods themselves (e.g. quoted-printable encoding or the artificial split of long lines, the Synchronet mail server does the latter).

    I'd like to develop a good universal policy regarding this.

    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #33:
    Nigel Tufnel: Well, so what? What's wrong with bein' sexy?
    Norco, CA WX: 71.5F, 33.0% humidity, 10 mph E wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From mark lewis@VERT to Nightfox on Friday, April 12, 2019 16:32:48
    On 2019 Apr 12 14:10:28, you wrote to me:

    it is actually quite easy along with reflow... the problem is what to
    reflow... without any soft-crs or hard-crs, life is much easier...
    only put hard-crs at the end of a paragraph...

    so I don't think I will support quoted line wrapping.

    reflowing...

    What is "reflowing"?

    where the existing quotes are reflowed to fit when the new quote characters are
    added...

    ml> for example this line, when quoted a second time

    ml>> would look like this with the second '>' added

    ml>>> and it would look like this the third time it was quoted

    it isn't a BBS... it is GoldED, a sysop reader that i use on this
    point system to access the message areas stored in JAM bases and
    managed by the HPT tosser ;)

    Ah. Well I'm not sure how Synchronet handles line wrapping when using GoldEd.

    synchronet is not in play other than as an intermediate tosser in the path of the messages' travels to arrive/depart to/from here...

    I suspect Synchronet does its line wrapping when a user is logged in
    to the BBS and viewing messages that way.

    right... and that's kinda what we're talking about... sync knows what the user's terminal dimentions are so it can inject CRs where needed but it may not
    even have to do that depending on how intelligent the terminal is... some terminals know when to back up to a space and inject a CR so the line moves down one and back to the left margin...

    Since GoldEd reads the message database directly, I suspect GoldEd is probably doing is own line wrapping.

    it is... the problem is when editors stuff CRs into the message in an effort to
    wrap them... those CRs are left in the messages when they are brought back into
    the BBS for others to access locally or remotely via message network transports... it would be nice if editors could somehow remove those forced wrapping CRs before the BBS imports the message into the message base... that or the BBS would remove them... so that then brings up the problem of tables and charts and the only thing i can see is to have something akin to what TimED
    has... for tables and charts, you would wrap them in double tildes... like this...

    ~~
    row 1 cell 1, row 1 cell 2, row 1 cell 3
    row 2 cell 1, row 1 cell 2, row 1 cell 3
    row 2 cell 1, row 1 cell 2, ros 1 cell 3
    ~~

    so then the editor or BBS, when saving the message into the local message base,
    would leave the hard CRs at the end of those lines and remove the two tildes at
    the beginning and the end of the table... that way the only CRs in the message file would be those at the end of a paragraph and those at the end of each of a
    table's or chart's rows... that way the table or chart retains its format and paragraphs are wrapped as needed based on the terminal width...

    if you can look at my posts in a raw PKT file with a hex viewer, you would see that each paragraph is one long line no matter now long it is... the number of lines that it may be displayed in is different for different width terminals...
    wider terminals would get fewer lines... narrower terminals would get more lines... same paragraph yet it is displayed properly on all terminals...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... What can I cook without much fuss? SPAM bake would tickle all of us!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Ed Vance@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Nightfox on Friday, April 12, 2019 08:49:00
    04-11-19 20:09 Nightfox wrote to Digital Man about Word wrapping
    Howdy! Nightfox, DM and All,

    Thought I'd send a Reply how Nightfox's message looks in a MultiMail
    QWK Packet on this XP box.

    I'm also jumping in with a thought that pop'ed up in my head while reading
    this Topic about 40, 80 and 132 character limits used with computer data.

    I remembered 65 characters is the limit for pages on a Teletype Model 15 machine and remember some Amateur Radio Operators (Hams) had them in
    their homes.

    I never wanted to have a noisy Model 15 at home so after reading the
    TV Typewriter Cookbook by Don Lancaster I ordered a Netronics Video/ASCII Terminal kit and their ASCII Keyboard kit in the 1970's.

    With a RTTY Demodulator circuit I saw in a Popular Electronics article
    and a HB 555 AFSKeyer circuit, I connected it to my Headphone Jack and
    Mike Connector on my Ham Radio gear and began using RTTY.

    I haven't used the Netronics Video/ASCII Terminal for a long time on Ham
    Radio, and I never tried using it with a computer Modem; only used it for
    my Radios long ago.

    The Terminal has Two settings for BAUDOT RTTY and Settings for 110 and
    300 BPS ASCII.

    I remember seeing the rightmost character at 60WPM Baudot changing rapidly
    in a line longer than 65 characters on my monitor until a CR/LF is received.

    And also remember hearing the Model 15 pounding keys in that 65th space
    in the Radio Room when I was in the service.

    I think the 100 WPM Baudot setting is 74 Baud - at that speed the Netronics terminal would do a automatic CR/LF on send and receive which was very nice
    for reading messages, Can't remember if the ASCII Modes had W/W'ing or not.

    Now for what I saw in Nightfox's message.


    @VIA: VERT/DIGDIST
    @MSGID: <5CB00154.19072.dove_syncprog@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <5CAFDAF8.38098.syncprog@vert.synchro.net>
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Thu Apr 11 2019 05:25 pm

    fseditor.js has been tested at various terminal widths. It word-wraps the created message text based on the current terminal width (less than or greater than 80 is no problem), so we need to store the terminal width in order to nicely re-word-wrap the message when being view or quoted by a user with a different terminal size.

    I am experimenting with a local copy of SlyEdit that allows typing the message in the entire width of the terminal (rather than restricting it
    to 79 characters). I'm curious if this message comes across okay and looks good, and what happens when this message is quoted.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

    73 de Ed W9ODR . .

    ... Every crowd has a silver lining - PT Barnum
    --- MultiMail/MS-DOS v0.49
    Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to mark lewis on Friday, April 12, 2019 14:49:57
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: mark lewis to Nightfox on Fri Apr 12 2019 06:32 pm

    What is "reflowing"?

    where the existing quotes are reflowed to fit when the new quote characters are added...

    Ah, I see. SlyEdit does that to an extent..

    Since GoldEd reads the message database directly, I suspect GoldEd
    is probably doing is own line wrapping.

    it is... the problem is when editors stuff CRs into the message in an effort to wrap them... those CRs are left in the messages when they are brought back into the BBS for others to access locally or remotely via message network transports... it would be nice if editors could somehow remove those forced wrapping CRs before the BBS imports the message into the message base... that or the BBS would remove them... so that then

    With Synchronet being aware of the user's terminal width, I tihnk Synchronet is removing the CRs where appropriate so it can wrap the text for another user's terminal width. I suppose an editor could save new text lines as just one long text line, assuming the BBS software would wrap it appropriately, but if Synchronet is wrapping based on the author's terminal width, then I would imagine Synchronet is assuming there are probably CRs in the text lines such that the text lines are at most as wide as the author's terminal.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Ed Vance on Friday, April 12, 2019 14:51:57
    Re: Re: Word wrapping
    By: Ed Vance to Nightfox on Fri Apr 12 2019 10:49 am

    I'm also jumping in with a thought that pop'ed up in my head while reading this Topic about 40, 80 and 132 character limits used with computer data.

    I started using BBSes in 1992, and at least since then, the minimum width I've seen for BBS terminal software has been 80 characters. It seems 80x24 or 80x25 has been a sort of standard for a long time.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Friday, April 12, 2019 15:03:10
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Digital Man to echicken on Fri Apr 12 2019 03:45 pm

    It may be preferable to store all messages un-wrapped and then optionally wrap/re-wrap messages exported to specific networks (or echoes) at the time of export, based on sysop's configuration preferences (e.g. network requirements). That way, local msg areas or those exported to known-compatible nets could pass around un-wrapped text.

    I was wondering about that, if text in a message should be saved as one long line and let the BBS software or viewer software wrap it as appropriate for the terminal in use. I think where it would get tricky is with quoted text lines, which usually have some sort of prefix on them. The prefix is not standard though.. I've seen " > " be used fairly often, and in the case of SlyEdit, a user can toggle whether or not to include author initials in the quote prefix. I've also seen variations on that as well, and other editors that will add something to quoted paragraphs such as "Such-and-such said" with a horizontal line before & after the paragraph.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From mark lewis@VERT to Nightfox on Friday, April 12, 2019 19:12:56
    On 2019 Apr 12 17:03:10, you wrote to Digital Man:

    It may be preferable to store all messages un-wrapped and then
    optionally wrap/re-wrap messages exported to specific networks (or
    echoes) at the time of export, based on sysop's configuration
    preferences (e.g. network requirements). That way, local msg areas or
    those exported to known-compatible nets could pass around un-wrapped
    text.

    I was wondering about that, if text in a message should be saved as
    one long line

    not all of the message text... only the paragraphs... quoted material would still have hard CRs placed... this is one paragraph...

    here's the beginning of another paragraph. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Phasellus dictum iaculis leo eget accumsan. Integer ac lectus eget felis dictum dictum. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Sed quis risus eu elit laoreet luctus. Aliquam erat volutpat. Phasellus pretium posuere libero, at gravida leo accumsan nec. Curabitur lacinia iaculis elementum. Suspendisse rutrum felis lorem, eget maximus lectus condimentum eget. Nam eu metus eget augue condimentum rutrum eget quis orci. Vivamus placerat tortor eget bibendum euismod. Nulla viverra tellus in tellus malesuada commodo. Cras vestibulum sagittis orci, commodo gravida augue accumsan ut. Interdum et malesuada fames ac ante ipsum primis in faucibus. and here's the end of this one paragraph...

    this is a 3rd paragraph... only these three would be long lines each... the above quotes would remain as they are at eight lines total until some software quoted and reflowed them...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... We didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world's been.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Al@VERT to mark lewis on Friday, April 12, 2019 22:36:52
    Yes there is. That stuff is all front and center now so we'll get that
    info to James. I'm thinking now that I'll try and get some stuff for
    you to look at in your e-test area when we have some upgrades to
    check.

    ok... please also check that netmails are not getting origin lines added to them...

    They do have a tear and origin line when written in Mystic. I don't know why that is and I have never questioned it. I don't think my BBBS adds a tear or origin line when I send netmail but I'd have to check an outgoing pkt to be sure.

    i had one come in here from a mystic system that caused sbbsecho to fall over... the actual reason for the fall over hasn't been determined yet but
    it definitely falls and there was definitely a proper tear line along with an unnecessary/unwanted/unspeced origin line...

    My first visit with Mystic was around 2015 with one of the 1.11 alphas and it has always added the tear and origin line to netmail messages since then.

    There may be a netmail issue between Mystic and SBBS but I have never noticed it before. We'd need to have a closer look and see if there are any needfull things there.

    Is it bad in any way that Mystic includes the tear and origin lines in netmail?


    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it
    wrong...
    ... A mighty creature is the germ, though smaller than the pachyderm.

    --- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From mark lewis@VERT to Al on Saturday, April 13, 2019 10:20:38
    On 2019 Apr 13 00:36:52, you wrote to me:

    ok... please also check that netmails are not getting origin lines
    added to them...

    They do have a tear and origin line when written in Mystic. I don't
    know why that is and I have never questioned it. I don't think my BBBS adds a tear or origin line when I send netmail but I'd have to check
    an outgoing pkt to be sure.

    yes, please check... netmail do not have origin lines... only echomail is spec'd to have origin lines... there's 30+ years of history showing this...

    i had one come in here from a mystic system that caused sbbsecho to
    fall over... the actual reason for the fall over hasn't been determined
    yet but it definitely falls and there was definitely a proper tear line
    along with an unnecessary/unwanted/unspeced origin line...

    My first visit with Mystic was around 2015 with one of the 1.11 alphas
    and it has always added the tear and origin line to netmail messages
    since then.

    i was involved with 1.11... ISTR that we definitely got that changed at that time... i worked with g00 in the echo here in fidonet to provid a lot of details and explanations... only one of the mystic systems connecting here has sent netmail with an origin line... because of the nature of netmail, the necessary origin information is already in the header... echomail is not like that because the packed message header changes as the echomail passes through each intermediate system...

    There may be a netmail issue between Mystic and SBBS but I have never noticed it before. We'd need to have a closer look and see if there
    are any needfull things there.

    netmail is netmail... no problems there...

    Is it bad in any way that Mystic includes the tear and origin lines in netmail?

    convention mainly... echomail is the only thing documented to require an origin
    line... the only real difference between echomail and netmail is the ^Aechotag control line... other differences are:

    echomail has seenby lines to track distribution
    echomail has path lines to track the road traveled
    netmail has via lines to track the road traveled
    netmail has FMPT and TOPT control lines for point systems
    echomail doesn't know what FMPT and TOPT lines are

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Reserve the apostrophe for it's proper use; omit it when its not needed. ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Digital Man@VERT to mark lewis on Saturday, April 13, 2019 13:25:22
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: mark lewis to echicken on Fri Apr 12 2019 11:41 am

    them, either... it is absolutely up to the reading terminal to determine where to wrap message test while displaying it before quoting it in a reply or follow-up...

    I don't know of any terminal programs that perform word-wrapping.

    digital man

    Synchronet "Real Fact" #88:
    SBBSecho v3.00 was first committed to cvs.synchro.net on Apr-11-2016.
    Norco, CA WX: 79.5F, 28.0% humidity, 7 mph NNW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Saturday, April 13, 2019 13:26:49
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Fri Apr 12 2019 09:40 am

    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Thu Apr 11 2019 08:16 pm

    Looks great on Vertrauen (viewing at 80 cols). And I can see from the message header you were using a terminal width of 132 columns at the time you wrote it.

    Thanks for confirming.

    You had mentioned yesterday that you added a setting in SCFG to enable sending the terminal width in the message header. I didn't have that setting yet since the new Synchronet binaries weren't available.. So is that setting enabled by default in the older builds?

    It depends what you mean by "older", that behavior is pretty new and was originally implemented for all editors, now it's optional and defaults to off.

    Also, I see there are
    no new Synchronet binaries available today.. The latest sbbs_dev.zip is dated April 11th.

    That should be fixed now.

    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #18:
    Sustain, listen to it. Don't hear anything. You would though were it playing. Norco, CA WX: 79.5F, 28.0% humidity, 7 mph NNW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Saturday, April 13, 2019 13:27:53
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Nightfox to Al on Fri Apr 12 2019 09:41 am

    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Al to Nightfox on Fri Apr 12 2019 12:05 am

    I am experimenting with a local copy of SlyEdit that allows typing the
    message in the entire width of the terminal (rather than
    restricting it to 79 characters). I'm curious if this message comes
    across okay and looks good, and what happens when this message
    is quoted.

    The above is what I see in BBBS when I view your message. I hope it doesn't get
    reformatted. I'm not sure why it wraps on the second line after the word "than and on the forth line after the word "message".

    hmm.. I suspect only Synchronet BBSes will re-wrap based on the terminal width in the message header.

    I honestly don't know. It may be more common than I thought.

    digital man

    Synchronet "Real Fact" #12:
    Synchronet was the first BBS software to ship with built-in RIPscrip support. Norco, CA WX: 79.5F, 28.0% humidity, 7 mph NNW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Saturday, April 13, 2019 13:30:32
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Nightfox to mark lewis on Fri Apr 12 2019 09:55 am

    quoted wrapping (aka reflow) is another thing...

    Yeah, I was thinking quoted wrapping wouldn't really work very well due to the added characters at the front of the lines, so I don't think I will support quoted line wrapping.

    Synchronet's built-in word-wrap function supports quotes intelligently - or at least it attempts to. So the auto-generated QUOTES.TXT file can be re-word-wrapped (that's what that option in SCFG enables): "Word-wrap quoted text"

    I don't think SlyEdit is using the quotes.txt file. Maybe it should? Or at least use the built-in word-wrap function in Synchronet?

    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #19:
    Oh then, maybe it's not green. Anyway this is what I sleep in sometimes.
    Norco, CA WX: 79.5F, 28.0% humidity, 7 mph NNW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Digital Man@VERT to mark lewis on Saturday, April 13, 2019 13:39:23
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: mark lewis to Nightfox on Fri Apr 12 2019 02:22 pm


    On 2019 Apr 12 09:55:26, you wrote to me:

    http://sestar.synchro.net/temp/20190412-nightfox-echomail-experiment-0
    1.jpg

    it would be a lot better if there was no forced wrapping and my
    terminal was allowed to wrap according to its extents... i thought we
    were trying to get away from forced wrapping in transmitted messages
    and allow the remote side to wrap to its size/settings... somehow this
    looks to be going backwards...

    quoted wrapping (aka reflow) is another thing...

    Yeah, I was thinking quoted wrapping wouldn't really work very well due to the added characters at the front of the lines,

    it is actually quite easy along with reflow... the problem is what to reflow...
    without any soft-crs or hard-crs, life is much easier... only put hard-crs at the end of a paragraph...

    What's you're definition of a "soft-cr" and "hard-cr"? I don't know of a any universally accepted definition.

    FidoNet's FTS-1 defines a soft-cr as 0x8d (that's an ASCII carriage return with the high bit, bit-7, set) and it says these characters should be ignored. SBBSecho strips all so-called soft-cr 0x8d and 0x0a (line-feed) characters when importing messages, based on the recommendations of FTS-1.

    so I don't think I will support quoted line wrapping.

    reflowing...

    However, I noticed the message I typed does look like it's longer than 79 characters, just that it's not wrapping for the full width of the terminal you're using.

    right... because of the hard-crs at the ends of those lines...

    What BBS software are you using?

    it isn't a BBS... it is GoldED, a sysop reader that i use on this point system to access the message areas stored in JAM bases and managed by the HPT tosser ;)

    Do you know if GoldED(+) actually supports the concept of "soft-cr" and "hard-cr"? Someone should take a look at that source... :-)

    digital man

    Synchronet "Real Fact" #89:
    Rob played drums on the album "Weedpuller" available for digital purchase/stream
    Norco, CA WX: 78.3F, 31.0% humidity, 14 mph NE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Saturday, April 13, 2019 13:49:50
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Fri Apr 12 2019 02:37 pm

    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Digital Man to Al on Fri Apr 12 2019 02:09 am

    The above is what I see in BBBS when I view your message. I hope it
    doesn't get
    reformatted. I'm not sure why it wraps on the second line after the
    word "than
    and on the forth line after the word "message".

    Because he wrote it with a terminal in 132 column mode and you're viewing it in a terminal likely in 80 column mode.

    I thought the idea, though, was that the terminal width shouldn't matter, and Synchronet should word-wrap the text to be appropriate for the user's terminal width?

    The current implemented idea is that messages are stored using whatever line-length/wrapping that the message editor created. Messages imported from networks are not re-formatted either - they are stored "as is" (with exceptions for stripping characters that are supposed to be ignored/stripped).

    And when displaying messages to a terminal user, Synchronet can (when not in raw I/O mode) re-wrap the message text to be nicely viewed on the current user's terminal. To perform this re-wrap intelligently, we need to know what the original terminal width was, so we can differentiate between lines that were auto-word-wrapped and lines that were intentionally truncated by the author. This algorithm seems to work fine, but is probably dependant on the original wrapping using the same criteria (algorithm) as the Synchronet built-in word-wrap function (thanks, Deuce!).

    I think it would be better to store each paragraph as a single long line, with caveats:

    1. Legacy message editors typically insert line-endings (i.e. CRLF) at the end of each line (not paragraph), even lines that were auto-wrapped. So messages created using editors like these would need to be unwrapped by SBBS (it does not do this currently).

    2. I'm not sure how nicely *all* other BBS programs and offline message readers would display such overly-long lines. It could be possible to word-wrap upon export messages on a per user (e.g. for offline reading) or per message network/echo basis, as needed to accomodate unfriendly software.

    digital man

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #58:
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    Norco, CA WX: 76.7F, 32.0% humidity, 12 mph NE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

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    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Digital Man@VERT to mark lewis on Saturday, April 13, 2019 13:52:29
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: mark lewis to Nightfox on Fri Apr 12 2019 06:32 pm

    right... and that's kinda what we're talking about... sync knows what the user's terminal dimentions are so it can inject CRs where needed but it may not
    even have to do that depending on how intelligent the terminal is... some terminals know when to back up to a space and inject a CR so the line moves down one and back to the left margin...

    I don't know of any terminal programs that know how to "word-wrap". That is, make sure words are not broken across lines. That intelligence is usually in the entity (e.g. software) that is *sending* the data (text) to the terminal, not the terminal itself.

    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #15:
    Review on "Shark Sandwich", merely a two word review: "Shit Sandwich".
    Norco, CA WX: 76.7F, 32.0% humidity, 12 mph NE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
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  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Saturday, April 13, 2019 13:54:41
    Re: Re: Word wrapping
    By: Nightfox to Ed Vance on Fri Apr 12 2019 04:51 pm

    Re: Re: Word wrapping
    By: Ed Vance to Nightfox on Fri Apr 12 2019 10:49 am

    I'm also jumping in with a thought that pop'ed up in my head while reading this Topic about 40, 80 and 132 character limits used with computer data.

    I started using BBSes in 1992, and at least since then, the minimum width I've seen for BBS terminal software has been 80 characters. It seems 80x24 or 80x25 has been a sort of standard for a long time.

    Recently (last year?) I started playing with CBM terminals and they're typically 40 columns - and trying to get Synchronet to "play nice" with them (and any other < 80 column terminals). It's a work in progress, but much better than it was before. You can't safely assume that a user's terminal is going to be 80+ columns wide.

    digital man

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #13:
    CP437 = Code Page 437 (so-called IBM Extended ASCII)
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    ---
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  • From Digital Man@VERT to mark lewis on Saturday, April 13, 2019 13:57:05
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: mark lewis to Al on Sat Apr 13 2019 12:20 pm

    the only real difference between echomail and netmail is the
    ^Aechotag control line... other differences are:

    I know that was likely just a typo, but it's "AREA:" and there's no ^A.


    digital man

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #33:
    GIF = Graphics Interchange Format (pronounced "JIFF")
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  • From mark lewis@VERT to Digital Man on Saturday, April 13, 2019 21:00:44
    On 2019 Apr 13 15:25:22, you wrote to me:

    them, either... it is absolutely up to the reading terminal to
    determine where to wrap message test while displaying it before
    quoting it in a reply or follow-up...

    I don't know of any terminal programs that perform word-wrapping.

    i may be thinking of WYSE terminals and similar... something about being an "intelligent" terminal... only had a few that could even do color...

    it has been a very long time since i saw such and did any type of coding for them... i think the last time i was really digging into them, they were attached to a PC-MOS (MultiUser DOS) system running on a 486 with 4Meg RAM and handling 64 serial ports for the terminals... that was back when we were writing custom modules for the SBT accounting package and running it on FoxBase... i don't recall any special comm stuff being done at all...

    simple 8N1 @ 9600 on two wires (!!) for the serial feeds to the devices... only
    had to do special wire routing for one or two systems that ran too close to electrical interference... we did use shielded cable, though... the shield was grounded on one end of the runs... pretty sure XON/XOFF was used since we didn't connect any other wires... late '80s & early '90s stuff, mon! :lol:

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Dynamic linking error. Your mistake is now in every file.
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  • From mark lewis@VERT to Digital Man on Saturday, April 13, 2019 20:32:00
    On 2019 Apr 13 15:39:22, you wrote to me:

    it is actually quite easy along with reflow... the problem is what to
    reflow... without any soft-crs or hard-crs, life is much easier... only
    put hard-crs at the end of a paragraph...

    What's you're definition of a "soft-cr" and "hard-cr"? I don't know of a any universally accepted definition.

    soft-cr as seen in fidonet is generally "" if that character shows up properly... if not it is ALT-141 0x8D...

    hard-cr is the standard \r character...

    FidoNet's FTS-1 defines a soft-cr as 0x8d (that's an ASCII carriage
    return with the high bit, bit-7, set) and it says these characters
    should be ignored.

    right... same character i try to show above...

    SBBSecho strips all so-called soft-cr 0x8d and 0x0a (line-feed)
    characters when importing messages, based on the recommendations of
    FTS-1.

    oh... so any (european) languages that use 0x8d as one of their characters will
    have them stripped, too?

    it isn't a BBS... it is GoldED, a sysop reader that i use on this point
    system to access the message areas stored in JAM bases and managed by
    the HPT tosser ;)

    Do you know if GoldED(+) actually supports the concept of "soft-cr"
    and "hard-cr"? Someone should take a look at that source... :-)

    i do see 0x8d from time to time in messages written with old editors... some tossers have an option to convert or not umlates and to not convert or strip 0x8d because they are valid characters in some languages...

    as far as GoldED, it only uses \r AFAIK... my terminal and lines here are wider
    than 80 characters but there is still some touchiness in GoldED when working wider than 132 at least... when i look in the raw JAM bases, the only characters in the message body are those i type and the enter key's \r...

    the source is open if someone wants to go digging about... there is an additional code set that adds SMB support to it... i think you had something to
    do with that some years ago... i don't use SMB here on this point system, though... this system's tosser is HPT and i don't recall setting anything specific for umlates or 0x8d characters...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... They call it PMS because Mad Cow Disease was already taken.
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  • From mark lewis@VERT to Digital Man on Saturday, April 13, 2019 20:45:36
    On 2019 Apr 13 15:49:50, you wrote to Nightfox:

    The current implemented idea is that messages are stored using
    whatever line-length/wrapping that the message editor created.
    Messages imported from networks are not re-formatted either - they are stored "as is" (with exceptions for stripping characters that are
    supposed to be ignored/stripped).

    ahhh... the other definition of "ignored" ;)

    yeah, there's been a bit of discussion over the years about what "ignored" really means... some code totally "ignores" 0x8d which leads to it being stripped... other code "ignores" 0x8d by treating it like any other character and not doing anything specific because of it...

    I think it would be better to store each paragraph as a single long
    line, with caveats:

    YAY!

    1. Legacy message editors typically insert line-endings (i.e. CRLF) at
    the end of each line (not paragraph), even lines that were
    auto-wrapped. So messages created using editors like these would need
    to be unwrapped by SBBS (it does not do this currently).

    i would leave them alone and see about getting the user to upgrade to a newer modern editor that doesn't shove \r at the end of every line... that's been the
    movement in fidonet since the early '90s at least...

    2. I'm not sure how nicely *all* other BBS programs and offline
    message readers would display such overly-long lines. It could be
    possible to word-wrap upon export messages on a per user (e.g. for
    offline reading) or per message network/echo basis, as needed to accomodate unfriendly software.

    i'm not personally aware of any out of all the fido oriented software i've used
    over the years... i've not done QWK stuff in a long time but the tools i have used didn't have any problems that i recall... these days i would use multimail
    instead of old abandoned QWK or BW software, though...

    i do see problems at times in emails in t-bird and other email readers, though... sometimes long line paragraphs are really one long line and i have to
    scroll sideways to read them... other long line paragraphs wrap properly according to the window width... those long line ones that have to be scrolled?
    i have gotten to where i just skip over them and don't even bother trying to read them...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... We are confronted with insurmountable opportunities.
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  • From mark lewis@VERT to Digital Man on Saturday, April 13, 2019 20:54:14
    On 2019 Apr 13 15:57:04, you wrote to me:

    the only real difference between echomail and netmail is the ^Aechotag
    control line... other differences are:

    I know that was likely just a typo, but it's "AREA:" and there's no ^A.

    you're right! i don't think they are around so much any more, but there are also some systems that have put the ^A in that control line... one of the spec documents mentions to be aware of this possibility and accomodate it as needed...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... NWT: where it's Politically Correct to eat whales.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
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  • From Digital Man@VERT to mark lewis on Saturday, April 13, 2019 23:18:58
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: mark lewis to Digital Man on Sat Apr 13 2019 10:45 pm


    On 2019 Apr 13 15:49:50, you wrote to Nightfox:

    The current implemented idea is that messages are stored using
    whatever line-length/wrapping that the message editor created.
    Messages imported from networks are not re-formatted either - they are stored "as is" (with exceptions for stripping characters that are supposed to be ignored/stripped).

    ahhh... the other definition of "ignored" ;)

    yeah, there's been a bit of discussion over the years about what "ignored" really means... some code totally "ignores" 0x8d which leads to it being stripped... other code "ignores" 0x8d by treating it like any other character and not doing anything specific because of it...

    I think it would be better to store each paragraph as a single long line, with caveats:

    YAY!

    1. Legacy message editors typically insert line-endings (i.e. CRLF) at the end of each line (not paragraph), even lines that were auto-wrapped. So messages created using editors like these would need to be unwrapped by SBBS (it does not do this currently).

    i would leave them alone and see about getting the user to upgrade to a newer modern editor that doesn't shove \r at the end of every line... that's been the
    movement in fidonet since the early '90s at least...

    Most editors use line-feeds to mark the ends of lines. On a DOS and Windows, that's traditionally be expanded to carriage-return / line-feed pairs, but I don't recall ever seeing an editor that just puts bare CRs in text files.

    Anyway, "newer modern editors" are always the user or sysops favorite, so I usually endevor to support old stuff the best I can.

    2. I'm not sure how nicely *all* other BBS programs and offline
    message readers would display such overly-long lines. It could be possible to word-wrap upon export messages on a per user (e.g. for offline reading) or per message network/echo basis, as needed to accomodate unfriendly software.

    i'm not personally aware of any out of all the fido oriented software i've used
    over the years... i've not done QWK stuff in a long time but the tools i have used didn't have any problems that i recall... these days i would use multimail
    instead of old abandoned QWK or BW software, though...

    You lost me. Aware of what?

    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #8:
    Derek Smalls: Making a big thing out of it would have been a good idea.
    Norco, CA WX: 60.6F, 46.0% humidity, 0 mph SW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

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  • From mark lewis@VERT to Digital Man on Sunday, April 14, 2019 07:29:14
    On 2019 Apr 14 01:18:58, you wrote to me:

    i would leave them alone and see about getting the user to upgrade to a
    newer modern editor that doesn't shove \r at the end of every line...
    that's been the movement in fidonet since the early '90s at least...

    Most editors use line-feeds to mark the ends of lines. On a DOS and Windows, that's traditionally be expanded to carriage-return /
    line-feed pairs, but I don't recall ever seeing an editor that just
    puts bare CRs in text files.

    yeah, my damned fingers and their attempts at autonomous control... i meant \n up there :/

    Anyway, "newer modern editors" are always the user or sysops favorite,
    so I usually endevor to support old stuff the best I can.

    it is a worthy goal :)

    2. I'm not sure how nicely *all* other BBS programs and offline
    message readers would display such overly-long lines. It could be
    possible to word-wrap upon export messages on a per user (e.g. for
    offline reading) or per message network/echo basis, as needed to
    accomodate unfriendly software.

    i'm not personally aware of any out of all the fido oriented software
    i've used over the years... i've not done QWK stuff in a long time
    but the tools i have used didn't have any problems that i recall...
    these days i would use multimail instead of old abandoned QWK or BW
    software, though...

    You lost me. Aware of what?

    "other BBS programs and offline message readers" that have problems to "display
    such overly-long lines."

    everything i've seen and worked with wraps on its own... sometimes it isn't done well and the text has a "chainsaw" look to it... in FTNs, the movement has
    been to abandon forced wrapping in the locally written and stored messages... that translates to long-line-paragraphs in transmission when those messages are
    scanned out and sent to other systems... the majority of posts, at one time, were all long-line-paragraph types... i haven't done any analysis in recent years, though, so that may have swung back the other way as systems have dropped out of the networks... i have no idea how QWK stuff is done, though... it may still need that forced wrapping stuff but FTN surely doesn't and has been advancing forward away from it since the '90s...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Well, you were right about this being a bad idea.
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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Sunday, April 14, 2019 17:10:35
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Sat Apr 13 2019 03:26 pm

    You had mentioned yesterday that you added a setting in SCFG to enable
    sending the terminal width in the message header. I didn't have that
    setting yet since the new Synchronet binaries weren't available.. So
    is that setting enabled by default in the older builds?

    It depends what you mean by "older", that behavior is pretty new and was originally implemented for all editors, now it's optional and defaults to off.

    By "older" I meant before the April 11th build.

    I also see another option that says "Word-wrap Quoted Text". I hadn't noticed that option before, but it looks like that option may have been there quite a while. How does it identify quoted text?

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Sunday, April 14, 2019 17:13:13
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Sat Apr 13 2019 03:30 pm

    I don't think SlyEdit is using the quotes.txt file. Maybe it should? Or at least use the built-in word-wrap function in Synchronet?

    Yes, SlyEdit uses quotes.txt. I think that's the only way an editor can enable quoting a message?

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to mark lewis on Sunday, April 14, 2019 21:51:20
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: mark lewis to Digital Man on Sun Apr 14 2019 09:29 am

    You lost me. Aware of what?

    "other BBS programs and offline message readers" that have problems to "display
    such overly-long lines."

    If that's the case, that's great news. I'll have to conduct some experiments.

    everything i've seen and worked with wraps on its own... sometimes it isn't done well and the text has a "chainsaw" look to it... in FTNs, the movement has
    been to abandon forced wrapping in the locally written and stored messages... that translates to long-line-paragraphs in transmission when those messages are
    scanned out and sent to other systems... the majority of posts, at one time, were all long-line-paragraph types... i haven't done any analysis in recent years, though, so that may have swung back the other way as systems have dropped out of the networks... i have no idea how QWK stuff is done, though... it may still need that forced wrapping stuff but FTN surely doesn't and has been advancing forward away from it since the '90s...

    Looks like my wrap-quote feature needs some work too! :-(

    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #13:
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    ---
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  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Sunday, April 14, 2019 21:54:12
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Sun Apr 14 2019 07:10 pm

    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Sat Apr 13 2019 03:26 pm

    You had mentioned yesterday that you added a setting in SCFG to enable
    sending the terminal width in the message header. I didn't have that
    setting yet since the new Synchronet binaries weren't available.. So
    is that setting enabled by default in the older builds?

    It depends what you mean by "older", that behavior is pretty new and was originally implemented for all editors, now it's optional and defaults to off.

    By "older" I meant before the April 11th build.

    I also see another option that says "Word-wrap Quoted Text". I hadn't noticed that option before, but it looks like that option may have been there quite a while. How does it identify quoted text?

    When you reply to a message, Synchronet can create a QUOTES.TXT file which contains the body text of the original message. That is the "quoted text". That option, when used, instructs sbbs to re-word-wrap the quoted text to suit the current user's terminal/editor width.

    digital man

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #42:
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    ---
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  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Sunday, April 14, 2019 21:56:38
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Nightfox to Digital Man on Sun Apr 14 2019 07:13 pm

    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Sat Apr 13 2019 03:30 pm

    I don't think SlyEdit is using the quotes.txt file. Maybe it should? Or at least use the built-in word-wrap function in Synchronet?

    Yes, SlyEdit uses quotes.txt.

    Ah, that it has its own re-word-wrapping.

    I think that's the only way an editor can enable quoting a message?

    I was think it was pulling it from the MsgBase, but fine that it doesn't. But the re-word-wrapping of the quotes.txt file shouldn't be necessary (ideally).

    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #44:
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    ---
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  • From Digital Man@VERT to mark lewis on Sunday, April 14, 2019 23:09:00
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: mark lewis to Nightfox on Fri Apr 12 2019 09:12 pm

    here's the beginning of another paragraph. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Phasellus dictum iaculis leo eget accumsan. Integer ac lectus eget felis dictum dictum. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Sed quis risus eu elit laoreet luctus. Aliquam erat volutpat. Phasellus pretium posuere libero, at gravida leo accumsan nec. Curabitur lacinia iaculis elementum. Suspendisse rutrum felis lorem, eget maximus lectus condimentum eget. Nam eu metus eget augue condimentum rutrum eget quis orci. Vivamus placerat tortor eget bibendum euismod. Nulla viverra tellus in tellus malesuada commodo. Cras vestibulum sagittis orci, commodo gravida augue accumsan ut. Interdum et malesuada fames ac ante ipsum primis in faucibus. and here's the end of this one paragraph...

    So... that paragraph was received ever over FidoNet as multiple <80 col lines:

    005e3ba0 68 65 72 65 27 73 20 74 68 65 20 62 65 67 69 6e |here's the begin| 005e3bb0 6e 69 6e 67 20 6f 66 20 61 6e 6f 74 68 65 72 20 |ning of another | 005e3bc0 70 61 72 61 67 72 61 70 68 2e 20 4c 6f 72 65 6d |paragraph. Lorem| 005e3bd0 20 69 70 73 75 6d 20 64 6f 6c 6f 72 20 73 69 74 | ipsum dolor sit| 005e3be0 20 61 6d 65 74 2c 20 0d 0a 63 6f 6e 73 65 63 74 | amet, ..consect| 005e3bf0 65 74 75 72 20 61 64 69 70 69 73 63 69 6e 67 20 |etur adipiscing | 005e3c00 65 6c 69 74 2e 20 50 68 61 73 65 6c 6c 75 73 20 |elit. Phasellus | 005e3c10 64 69 63 74 75 6d 20 69 61 63 75 6c 69 73 20 6c |dictum iaculis l| 005e3c20 65 6f 20 65 67 65 74 20 61 63 63 75 6d 73 61 6e |eo eget accumsan| 005e3c30 2e 20 0d 0a 49 6e 74 65 67 65 72 20 61 63 20 6c |. ..Integer ac l| 005e3c40 65 63 74 75 73 20 65 67 65 74 20 66 65 6c 69 73 |ectus eget felis| 005e3c50 20 64 69 63 74 75 6d 20 64 69 63 74 75 6d 2e 20 | dictum dictum. | 005e3c60 4c 6f 72 65 6d 20 69 70 73 75 6d 20 64 6f 6c 6f |Lorem ipsum dolo| 005e3c70 72 20 73 69 74 20 61 6d 65 74 2c 20 0d 0a 63 6f |r sit amet, ..co| 005e3c80 6e 73 65 63 74 65 74 75 72 20 61 64 69 70 69 73 |nsectetur adipis| 005e3c90 63 69 6e 67 20 65 6c 69 74 2e 20 53 65 64 20 71 |cing elit. Sed q| 005e3ca0 75 69 73 20 72 69 73 75 73 20 65 75 20 65 6c 69 |uis risus eu eli| 005e3cb0 74 20 6c 61 6f 72 65 65 74 20 6c 75 63 74 75 73 |t laoreet luctus| 005e3cc0 2e 20 41 6c 69 71 75 61 6d 20 0d 0a 65 72 61 74 |. Aliquam ..erat| 005e3cd0 20 76 6f 6c 75 74 70 61 74 2e 20 50 68 61 73 65 | volutpat. Phase| 005e3ce0 6c 6c 75 73 20 70 72 65 74 69 75 6d 20 70 6f 73 |llus pretium pos| 005e3cf0 75 65 72 65 20 6c 69 62 65 72 6f 2c 20 61 74 20 |uere libero, at | 005e3d00 67 72 61 76 69 64 61 20 6c 65 6f 20 61 63 63 75 |gravida leo accu| 005e3d10 6d 73 61 6e 20 6e 65 63 2e 20 0d 0a 43 75 72 61 |msan nec. ..Cura| 005e3d20 62 69 74 75 72 20 6c 61 63 69 6e 69 61 20 69 61 |bitur lacinia ia| 005e3d30 63 75 6c 69 73 20 65 6c 65 6d 65 6e 74 75 6d 2e |culis elementum.| 005e3d40 20 53 75 73 70 65 6e 64 69 73 73 65 20 72 75 74 | Suspendisse rut| 005e3d50 72 75 6d 20 66 65 6c 69 73 20 6c 6f 72 65 6d 2c |rum felis lorem,| 005e3d60 20 65 67 65 74 20 0d 0a 6d 61 78 69 6d 75 73 20 | eget ..maximus | 005e3d70 6c 65 63 74 75 73 20 63 6f 6e 64 69 6d 65 6e 74 |lectus condiment| 005e3d80 75 6d 20 65 67 65 74 2e 20 4e 61 6d 20 65 75 20 |um eget. Nam eu | 005e3d90 6d 65 74 75 73 20 65 67 65 74 20 61 75 67 75 65 |metus eget augue| 005e3da0 20 63 6f 6e 64 69 6d 65 6e 74 75 6d 20 72 75 74 | condimentum rut| 005e3db0 72 75 6d 20 0d 0a 65 67 65 74 20 71 75 69 73 20 |rum ..eget quis | 005e3dc0 6f 72 63 69 2e 20 56 69 76 61 6d 75 73 20 70 6c |orci. Vivamus pl| 005e3dd0 61 63 65 72 61 74 20 74 6f 72 74 6f 72 20 65 67 |acerat tortor eg| 005e3de0 65 74 20 62 69 62 65 6e 64 75 6d 20 65 75 69 73 |et bibendum euis| 005e3df0 6d 6f 64 2e 20 4e 75 6c 6c 61 20 76 69 76 65 72 |mod. Nulla viver| 005e3e00 72 61 20 0d 0a 74 65 6c 6c 75 73 20 69 6e 20 74 |ra ..tellus in t| 005e3e10 65 6c 6c 75 73 20 6d 61 6c 65 73 75 61 64 61 20 |ellus malesuada | 005e3e20 63 6f 6d 6d 6f 64 6f 2e 20 43 72 61 73 20 76 65 |commodo. Cras ve| 005e3e30 73 74 69 62 75 6c 75 6d 20 73 61 67 69 74 74 69 |stibulum sagitti| 005e3e40 73 20 6f 72 63 69 2c 20 63 6f 6d 6d 6f 64 6f 20 |s orci, commodo | 005e3e50 0d 0a 67 72 61 76 69 64 61 20 61 75 67 75 65 20 |..gravida augue | 005e3e60 61 63 63 75 6d 73 61 6e 20 75 74 2e 20 49 6e 74 |accumsan ut. Int| 005e3e70 65 72 64 75 6d 20 65 74 20 6d 61 6c 65 73 75 61 |erdum et malesua| 005e3e80 64 61 20 66 61 6d 65 73 20 61 63 20 61 6e 74 65 |da fames ac ante| 005e3e90 20 69 70 73 75 6d 20 70 72 69 6d 69 73 20 69 6e | ipsum primis in| 005e3ea0 20 0d 0a 66 61 75 63 69 62 75 73 2e 20 61 6e 64 | ..faucibus. and| 005e3eb0 20 68 65 72 65 27 73 20 74 68 65 20 65 6e 64 20 | here's the end | 005e3ec0 6f 66 20 74 68 69 73 20 6f 6e 65 20 70 61 72 61 |of this one para| 005e3ed0 67 72 61 70 68 2e 2e 2e 0d 0a 0d 0a |graph....

    Now SMB storage does store line-endings ("hard-CRs" or FidoNet) as CRLF (0d 0a) pairs, but it certainly doesn't break long lines. Are you sure your paragraph was sent out as one overly-long line?

    digital man

    Synchronet "Real Fact" #34:
    The back-up synchro.net nameserver and CVS repository is hosted by Deuce. Norco, CA WX: 56.5F, 58.0% humidity, 0 mph S wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Digital Man@VERT to mark lewis on Monday, April 15, 2019 00:37:43
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: mark lewis to Nightfox on Fri Apr 12 2019 09:12 pm

    here's the beginning of another paragraph. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Phasellus dictum iaculis
    leo eget accumsan. Integer ac lectus eget felis dictum dictum. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Sed
    quis risus eu elit laoreet luctus. Aliquam erat volutpat. Phasellus pretium posuere libero, at gravida leo accumsan nec.
    Curabitur lacinia iaculis elementum. Suspendisse rutrum felis lorem, eget maximus lectus condimentum eget. Nam eu metus eget
    augue condimentum rutrum eget quis orci. Vivamus placerat tortor eget bibendum euismod. Nulla viverra tellus in tellus
    malesuada commodo. Cras vestibulum sagittis orci, commodo gravida augue accumsan ut. Interdum et malesuada fames ac ante ips
    primis in faucibus. and here's the end of this one paragraph...

    This is just a test. Quoting your message in 132 column mode.


    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #21:
    So when you're playing you feel like a preserved moose on stage?
    Norco, CA WX: 55.9F, 60.0% humidity, 0 mph SW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Digital Man@VERT to mark lewis on Monday, April 15, 2019 01:17:21
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: mark lewis to Digital Man on Sun Apr 14 2019 09:29 am

    everything i've seen and worked with wraps on its own... sometimes it isn't done well and the text has a "chainsaw" look to
    it... in FTNs, the movement has been to abandon forced wrapping in the locally written and stored messages... that translates
    to long-line-paragraphs in transmission when those messages are scanned out and sent to other systems...

    I'm very curious then why your messages that are received here over FidoNet seem to consistent of lines of 79 chars or less, not
    "long-line-paragraphs".


    digital man

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #18:
    DM = Digital Man (Rob Swindell) or Dungeon Master
    Norco, CA WX: 55.5F, 60.0% humidity, 0 mph SW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Digital Man on Monday, April 15, 2019 07:53:16
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: Digital Man to Nightfox on Sun Apr 14 2019 11:56 pm

    Yes, SlyEdit uses quotes.txt.

    Ah, that it has its own re-word-wrapping.

    I think that's the only way an editor can enable quoting a message?

    I was think it was pulling it from the MsgBase, but fine that it doesn't. But the re-word-wrapping of the quotes.txt file shouldn't be necessary (ideally).

    Ah, SlyEdit does access the MsgBase, but only to get the author's initials to prepend to the quote line prefix (if the user has that option enabled - which is the default).

    I hadn't thought about reading the message from the MsgBase as well.. SlyEdit has always used quotes.txt.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From mark lewis@VERT to Digital Man on Monday, April 15, 2019 11:44:04
    On 2019 Apr 14 23:51:20, you wrote to me:

    You lost me. Aware of what?

    "other BBS programs and offline message readers" that have problems
    to "display such overly-long lines."

    If that's the case, that's great news. I'll have to conduct some experiments.

    +1 :)

    [trim]
    systems... the majority of posts, at one time, were all
    long-line-paragraph types... i haven't done any analysis in recent
    years, though, so that may have swung back the other way as systems
    have dropped out of the networks... i have no idea how QWK stuff is
    done, though... it may still need that forced wrapping stuff but FTN
    surely doesn't and has been advancing forward away from it since the
    '90s...

    Looks like my wrap-quote feature needs some work too! :-(

    sorry, i didn't mean to cause you more work :oops: :)

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Those who know nothing doubt nothing!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From mark lewis@VERT to Digital Man on Monday, April 15, 2019 11:47:30
    On 2019 Apr 15 01:09:00, you wrote to me:

    here's the beginning of another paragraph. Lorem ipsum dolor sit
    [trim]
    ac ante ipsum primis in faucibus. and here's the end of this one
    paragraph...

    So... that paragraph was received ever over FidoNet as multiple <80 col lines:

    [trim]

    Now SMB storage does store line-endings ("hard-CRs" or FidoNet) as CRLF
    (0d
    0a) pairs, but it certainly doesn't break long lines. Are you sure your paragraph was sent out as one overly-long line?

    it should have been... i'll have to do some testing and grab the packet before sbbsecho gets it... the trail from here is

    GoldED->HPT->binkd->BinkIt.js->sbbsecho->fidonet links

    it may have been modified in transit which is something a few of us have been trying to track down... can you provide the PATH line for that message so we can see how it arrived at Vert, please?

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... NATTO: Even the Japanese dislike it.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
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  • From mark lewis@VERT to Digital Man on Monday, April 15, 2019 11:52:14
    On 2019 Apr 15 02:37:42, you wrote to me:

    [trim]

    This is just a test. Quoting your message in 132 column mode.

    that looked to be wrapped to <132 over here... test passed :)

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... No matter how good she looks some guy is sick of putting up with her.
    ---
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  • From mark lewis@VERT to Digital Man on Monday, April 15, 2019 11:53:12
    On 2019 Apr 15 03:17:20, you wrote to me:

    everything i've seen and worked with wraps on its own... sometimes it
    isn't done well and the text has a "chainsaw" look to it... in FTNs,
    the movement has been to abandon forced wrapping in the locally
    written and stored messages... that translates to
    long-line-paragraphs in transmission when those messages are scanned
    out and sent to other systems...

    I'm very curious then why your messages that are received here over FidoNet seem to consistent of lines of 79 chars or less, not "long-line-paragraphs".

    i don't know... i wasn't aware of that happening but i am now on a different setup than i used to be... before used to be an OS/2 setup with different software in the mix... i'll be finding out shortly when i quit out of GoldED and grab the outbound packet before it gets over to sestar and sbbsecho gets hold of it ;)

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... If you crack an antique it only increases the value.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From mark lewis@VERT to Digital Man on Monday, April 15, 2019 12:13:50
    On 2019 Apr 15 13:53:12, I wrote to you:

    i'll be finding out shortly when i quit out of GoldED and grab the outbound packet before it gets over to sestar and sbbsecho gets hold
    of it ;)

    i now have the outbound packet from this point and the outbound packet that sbbsecho generated with these messages... they have these long line paragraphs in them... both packets look fine when i view the message i'm commenting on... the paragraphs i write do have long lines in them...

    here's two jpgs... the first one is the outbound pkt from here with the above quoted paragraph as originally written... the second is the same paragraph after sbbsecho processed it... the byte positions are off becaues of other messages in the packets but the paragraph is the same... you can see that there's 0x0d right before my "i'll be finding out" and the next one is at the very end after the smiley...

    http://sestar.synchro.net/temp/20190415-FTN-pktdump-long-line-paragraphs-initial-01.jpg

    http://sestar.synchro.net/temp/20190415-FTN-pktdump-long-line-paragraphs-sbbsecho-out-02.jpg

    if you get that original message and it has \n at <80, please post the PATH line... thanks!

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... What is "obscenity"? Whatever gets the judge excited.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
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  • From Digital Man@VERT to mark lewis on Tuesday, April 16, 2019 00:19:02
    Re: Word wrapping
    By: mark lewis to Digital Man on Mon Apr 15 2019 02:13 pm

    if you get that original message and it has \n at <80, please post the PATH line... thanks!

    Here you go: X-FTN-PATH 3634/12 154/10 280/464

    digital man

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #9:
    BSO = Binkley Style Outbound
    Norco, CA WX: 53.6F, 86.0% humidity, 0 mph WSW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From mark lewis@VERT to Digital Man on Tuesday, April 16, 2019 09:03:08
    On 2019 Apr 16 02:19:02, you wrote to me:

    if you get that original message and it has \n at <80, please post the
    PATH line... thanks!

    Here you go: X-FTN-PATH 3634/12 154/10 280/464

    3634/12 is, of course, my sbbs node...
    154/10 is nick boel's system... looks like he's running sbbs 3.17...
    280/464 is wilfred van Velzen's system... i'm pretty sure his tosser is FMail...

    i hope it isn't FMail because that's a pretty nice package but if it is, then this problem has gotten a bit larger than earlier suspected :/

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Greenpeace 1 Targeted Sir. Aye, Fire all torpedos!!!
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  • From Wilfred van Velzen@VERT to mark lewis on Tuesday, April 16, 2019 17:46:27
    Hi mark,

    On 2019-04-16 11:03:08, you wrote to Digital Man:

    if you get that original message and it has \n at <80, please post the
    PATH line... thanks!

    Here you go: X-FTN-PATH 3634/12 154/10 280/464

    3634/12 is, of course, my sbbs node...
    154/10 is nick boel's system... looks like he's running sbbs 3.17... 280/464 is wilfred van Velzen's system... i'm pretty sure his tosser is FMail...

    i hope it isn't FMail because that's a pretty nice package but if it is, then this problem has gotten a bit larger than earlier suspected :/

    Is this about reformatting long lines of in transit echomail? FMail doesn't do that. But you don't have to take my word for it. Maurice Kinal has tested this ad nauseam from his point address on my system in ASIAN_LINK, as you are well aware of... ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From mark lewis@VERT to Wilfred van Velzen on Tuesday, April 16, 2019 20:17:16
    On 2019 Apr 16 19:46:26, you wrote to me:

    i hope it isn't FMail because that's a pretty nice package but if it
    is, then this problem has gotten a bit larger than earlier suspected
    :/

    Is this about reformatting long lines of in transit echomail?

    yes...

    FMail doesn't do that. But you don't have to take my word for it.

    i ran FMail back in the day and i don't remember it doing that, either...

    Maurice Kinal has tested this ad nauseam from his point address on my system in ASIAN_LINK, as you are well aware of... ;)

    maybe there can be a link to my E-TEST area... it has limited distribution... makes it easier than trying to decode fidoweb loops...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... The best Chinese food in Seattle is found in Vancouver.
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