• A rule needed :)

    From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/6 to All on Wednesday, September 18, 2019 14:14:22
    Hi, all!

    Reading a novel "The standard of living", by Dorothy Parker, I read this:

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    Annabel and Midge had been best friends almost from the day that Midge
    had found a job as stenographer with the firm that employed Annabel.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    How can I explain to my conscience the absence of "a" before "stenographer"? ;)

    Bye, all!
    Alexander Koryagin

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Alexander Koryagin on Wednesday, September 18, 2019 21:19:00
    Hi! Alexander,

    On 18 Sep 19 14:14, you wrote to All:

    How can I explain to my conscience the absence of "a" before "stenographer"? ;)

    Relax. It works fine both ways on that occasion. We know that she is _a_ stenographer without being told. If she really was a typist then there might be cause for concern. :)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... "Always bet on black", John Cutter (1992).
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Alexander Koryagin on Wednesday, September 18, 2019 10:05:34
    On 2019 Sep 18 14:14:22, you wrote to All:

    Reading a novel "The standard of living", by Dorothy Parker, I read this:

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    Annabel and Midge had been best friends almost from the day that Midge
    had found a job as stenographer with the firm that employed Annabel.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    How can I explain to my conscience the absence of "a" before "stenographer"? ;)

    in this case, i suspect that stenographer is a title... it is also a position which an "a" would indicate... adding the "a" would also seem to indicate there
    is more than one stenographer...

    )\/(ark

    Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set
    them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them. ... Over 60 million people in the U.S. eat SPAM. The rest have taste buds.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Alexander Koryagin on Wednesday, September 18, 2019 09:35:24
    Hi Alexander -- on Sep 18 2019 at 14:14, you wrote:

    Reading a novel "The standard of living", by Dorothy Parker, I read this:

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    Annabel and Midge had been best friends almost from the day that Midge
    had found a job as stenographer with the firm that employed Annabel.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    How can I explain to my conscience the absence of "a" before
    "stenographer"? ;)

    Your conscience may not like this, but:

    1) In common English usage, we often drop the article where the context is unclear. In this example, is Midge the only stenographer, or one of many?

    2) You're referencing a book written in 1941, and the language by today's standards is cumbersome and wordy. This fact makes it difficult to explain if one isn't intimately familiar with the writing style and grammatical rules which were in vogue at that time.

    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to ALEXANDER KORYAGIN on Wednesday, September 18, 2019 16:37:00
    Reading a novel "The standard of living", by Dorothy Parker, I read this:

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    Annabel and Midge had been best friends almost from the day that Midge
    had found a job as stenographer with the firm that employed Annabel.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    How can I explain to my conscience the absence of "a" before "stenographer"?
    ;

    Others have said it is fine. I think it reads like broken English, like someone wrote it that is not a native speaker. I would expect a "the" in
    front of it if she was the only one, and "a" if there might be more than
    one with the firm.

    Mike
    ---
    SLMR 2.1a This message protected by DALETECH!!
    * Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Mike Powell on Wednesday, September 18, 2019 16:29:36
    Hi Mike -- on Sep 18 2019 at 16:37, you wrote:

    Others have said it is fine. I think it reads like broken English, like someone wrote it that is not a native speaker. I would expect a "the" in front of it if she was the only one, and "a" if there might be more than one with the firm.

    I might point out that Dorothy Parker was not a paragon of English writing.

    Dorothy Parker (ne Rothschild; August 22, 1893 - June 7, 1967) was an American poet, writer, critic, and satirist based in New York; she was best known for her wit, wisecracks, and eye for 20th-century urban foibles. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Parker)

    She was a founding member of a group called the Algonquin Round Table, joining with Rober Benchley, Franklin Adams, and Alexander Woolcott. In most of their writings, it seems to me that they cared about their words more than about the play/book they were supposed to be reviewing.

    cf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algonquin_Round_Table


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/6 to Dallas Hinton on Monday, September 23, 2019 20:38:58
    Dallas Hinton:

    I might point out that Dorothy Parker was not a paragon
    of English writing.

    Dorothy Parker (nee Rothschild; August 22, 1893 - June
    7, 1967) was an American poet, writer, critic, and
    satirist based in New York; she was best known for her
    wit, wisecracks, and eye for 20th-century urban foibles. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Parker)

    The Jews are famous for their second-language quirks. If
    you knew Russian I should refer to you the hilarious Russian
    dialect of the Odessa Jews. Cornell Woolrich puts some
    funny examples in the mought of Mrs. Rozoff in his excellent
    short story "An apple a day."

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Alexander Koryagin on Tuesday, October 29, 2019 16:10:36
    Alexander Koryagin:

    Reading a novel "The standard of living", by Dorothy
    Parker,

    *the* novel.

    I read this:

    Annabel and Midge had been best friends almost from
    the day that Midge had found a job as stenographer
    with the firm that employed Annabel.

    How can I explain to my conscience the absence of "a"
    before "stenographer"? ;)

    On my way to work I have encountered a difficult case in
    Oscar Wilde's play "An Ideal Husband":

    Mabel Chiltern: But it is for an excellent charity: in aid
    of the Undeserving, the only people I am really
    interested in. I am the secretary, and Tommy Trafford is
    treasurer.

    Mrs. Cheveley: And what is Lord Goring?

    Mabel Chiltern: Oh! Lord Goring is president.

    How can you explain "the secretary", "treasurer", and "president"?

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Anton Shepelev on Tuesday, October 29, 2019 16:36:22
    I wrote:

    On my way to work I have encountered a difficult case

    Omit "have".

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Anton Shepelev on Tuesday, October 29, 2019 12:06:33
    Hi Anton -- on Oct 29 2019 at 16:10, you wrote:

    How can you explain "the secretary", "treasurer", and "president"?

    It would seem that they have formed a society (whether formal or informal) that
    requires an executive - a president, secretary, and treasurer.


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Anton Shepelev on Wednesday, October 30, 2019 08:38:58
    Hi, Anton Shepelev!
    I read your message from 29.10.2019 17:10

    I read this:
    Annabel and Midge had been best friends almost from the day that
    Midge had found a job as stenographer with the firm that employed
    Annabel.

    How can I explain to my conscience the absence of "a"
    before "stenographer"? ;)

    On my way to work I have encountered a difficult case in Oscar
    Wilde's play "An Ideal Husband":

    Mabel Chiltern: But it is for an excellent charity: in aid
    of the Undeserving, the only people I am really
    interested in. I am the secretary, and Tommy Trafford is
    treasurer.

    Mrs. Cheveley: And what is Lord Goring?
    Mabel Chiltern: Oh! Lord Goring is president.
    How can you explain "the secretary", "treasurer", and "president"?

    AFAIR, you can omit an article in pairs divided by "and". I mean "the" before "secretary" implies "the" before "treasurer".

    Similar we can omit "to" before verbs:

    "I want to read and write."

    As for president - my textbook says an article is unnecessary in official job titles, if there is only one person holding this position at any given time.

    For instance, "George Osborne is (the) Chancellor of the Exchequer."

    In this case positions start with a capital letter, usually.

    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Anton Shepelev on Wednesday, October 30, 2019 08:46:54
    Hi, Anton Shepelev : Anton Shepelev!
    I read your message from 29.10.2019 17:36

    On my way to work I have encountered a difficult case
    Omit "have".

    The information about the case is connected with the present time (you haven't put the time mark). Therefore, IMHO, the present perfect time was correct.

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Dallas Hinton on Wednesday, October 30, 2019 15:39:30
    Dallas Hinton to Anton Shepelev:


    Mabel Chiltern: But it is for an excellent charity: in
    aid of the Undeserving, the only people I am really
    interested in. I am the secretary, and Tommy
    Trafford is treasurer.

    Mrs. Cheveley: And what is Lord Goring?

    Mabel Chiltern: Oh! Lord Goring is president.

    How can you explain "the secretary", "treasurer", and
    "president"?

    It would seem that they have formed a society (whether
    formal or informal) that requires an executive -- a
    president, secretary, and treasurer.

    Indeed, a charity. But I was asking why in the dialog above
    "secretary" is modifed by the definite article, whereas
    "treasurer" and "president" are not.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Alexander Koryagin on Wednesday, October 30, 2019 15:42:40
    Alexander Koryagin to Anton Shepelev:

    On my way to work I have encountered a difficult case
    Omit "have".

    The information about the case is connected with the
    present time (you haven't put the time mark). Therefore,
    IMHO, the present perfect time was correct.

    No, the Present Perfect is harly possible here because "on
    my way to work" clearly indicates a past time and makes the
    whole sentence narrative.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Anton Shepelev on Wednesday, October 30, 2019 11:23:42
    Hi Anton -- on Oct 30 2019 at 15:39, you wrote:

    Indeed, a charity. But I was asking why in the dialog above
    "secretary" is modifed by the definite article, whereas
    "treasurer" and "president" are not.

    Oh, sorry - I misunderstood your question! I think it's been answered, then...
    in a string of nouns like that, it's permissible to use the article only for the first noun.


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Anton Shepelev on Wednesday, October 30, 2019 17:23:09
    Hi, Anton! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

    On my way to work I have encountered a difficult case
    Omit "have".

    The information about the case is connected with the
    present time (you haven't put the time mark). Therefore,
    IMHO, the present perfect time was correct.

    No, the Present Perfect is harly
    |hardly?

    possible here because "on my way to work" clearly
    indicates a past time and makes the whole sentence
    narrative.


    IMHO the issue may have a lot to do what is or isn't a "time marker".
    I regard your correction as an improvement because I imagine you mean something along the lines of "On my way to work today, before I was able to relax at home & catch up on my echomail, I noticed [blah blah] in the comedy of
    manners I was reading on the bus". Alexander may be thinking more of Freddy in MY FAIR LADY, who informs the audience "I have often walked down this street
    before".... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Wednesday, October 30, 2019 17:37:00
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Anton Shepelev:

    I read this:
    Annabel and Midge had been best friends almost from
    the day that Midge had found a job as stenographer
    with the firm that employed Annabel.

    How can I explain to my conscience the absence of "a"
    before "stenographer"? ;)

    [...]

    As for president - my textbook says an article is
    unnecessary in official job titles, if there is only
    one person holding this position at any given time.


    IMHO you answered your own question there. Depending on the size of
    the firm, one stenographer... i.e. a person who can take dictation in shorthand & type it out at a fairly impressive rate... may have been enough. I
    don't see any evidence indicating Annabel had been employed in the same capacity.

    Not to worry. It's often said in the EdBiz that before knowing what
    questions to ask we must already know at least half of the answer... [chuckle].




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Ardith Hinton on Thursday, October 31, 2019 08:39:50
    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 30.10.2019 18:37

    I read this: Annabel and Midge had been best friends almost from
    the day that Midge had found a job as stenographer with the firm
    that employed Annabel.

    How can I explain to my conscience the absence of "a"
    before "stenographer"? ;)

    [...]
    As for president - my textbook says an article is unnecessary in
    official job titles, if there is only one person holding this
    position at any given time.

    IMHO you answered your own question there. Depending on the size of
    the firm, one stenographer... i.e. a person who can take dictation
    in shorthand & type it out at a fairly impressive rate... may have
    been enough. I don't see any evidence indicating Annabel had been
    employed in the same capacity.

    Not to worry. It's often said in the EdBiz that before knowing what questions to ask we must already know at least half of the
    answer... [chuckle].

    I also don't see any evidence indicating Annabel had been employed in the same capacity, but IMHO also there is no ground to suggest that a stenographer is as
    unique position in a firm as its President.

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Anton Shepelev on Thursday, October 31, 2019 08:56:52
    Hi, Anton Shepelev!
    I read your message from 30.10.2019 16:42

    On my way to work I have encountered a difficult case
    Omit "have".

    The information about the case is connected with the present time
    (you haven't put the time mark). Therefore, IMHO, the present
    perfect time was correct.

    No, the Present Perfect is harly possible here because "on my way
    to work" clearly indicates a past time and makes the whole sentence narrative.

    Can we use the present perfect speaking of the action that has happened just recently?

    Ardith, what's the difference in meaning between "I have encountered" and "I encountered"? IMHO, "I have encountered" is not an error.

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Ardith Hinton on Thursday, October 31, 2019 14:15:18
    Ardith Hinton to Anton Shepelev:

    On my way to work I have encountered a difficult
    case

    Omit "have".

    The information about the case is connected with the
    present time (you haven't put the time mark).
    Therefore, IMHO, the present perfect time was correct.

    No, the Present Perfect is harly [AS: hardly] possible
    here because "on my way to work" clearly indicates a
    past time and makes the whole sentence narrative.

    IMHO the issue may have a lot to do what is or isn't a
    "time marker".

    Well, I dislike this term in particular, and prefer in
    general to analyse grammar based on the intended maning,
    using terminology as an aid rather than as the primary
    instrument. From that viewpoint, nothing can depend on a
    defintion of a term. The sentence is correct or wrong (or a
    gradation in between!) regardless of what terms we use to
    discuss it.

    I regard your correction as an improvement because I
    imagine you mean something along the lines of "On my way
    to work today, before I was able to relax at home &
    catch up on my echomail, I noticed [blah blah] in the
    comedy of manners I was reading on the bus".

    Sort of that thing, yes -- I simply wrote of an event that
    had occured with me (or to me?) earler. It is not a "been
    there, done that" kind of statement.

    Do you think all Wilde's plays comedies of manners?

    Alexander may be thinking more of Freddy in MY FAIR
    LADY, who informs the audience "I have often walked down
    this street before".... :-)

    I have not read that one, but the line you quoted has a
    "habutual" meaning, if I may say so, for it does not refer
    to a specific event in the past. I wot not how Alexander
    might have misinterpreted my sentence in this way. It does
    not have "often" or another word indicating a habit and
    repetition...

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Dallas Hinton on Thursday, October 31, 2019 14:25:30
    Dallas Hinton to Anton Shepelev:

    Oh, sorry -- I misunderstood your question!

    I beg pardon for not making it clearer the first time.

    I think it's been answered, then...

    By Alexander? I will comment his answer when time permits.

    in a string of nouns like that, it's permissible to use
    the article only for the first noun.

    You have snipped the dialogue in question, so I will
    reinstate it and number the office names:

    Mabel Chiltern: But it is for an excellent charity: in
    aid of the Undeserving, the only people I am really
    interested in. I am (1) the secretary, and Tommy
    Trafford is (2) treasurer.

    Mrs. Cheveley: And what is Lord Goring?

    Mabel Chiltern: Oh! Lord Goring is (3) president.

    Do you call that a string? The office name occur in
    different clauses, different sentences, and different lines
    of dialogue.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Saturday, November 30, 2019 23:35:46
    Hi, Alexander! Awhile ago you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    I also don't see any evidence indicating Annabel
    had been employed in the same capacity, but IMHO
    also there is no ground to suggest that a stenographer
    is as unique position in a firm as its President.
    |is in as unique a position


    The title of "president" certainly sounds more formal, and is often capitalized. With other job titles, however, the situation may be less clear. "Secretary of State" is an official role which is held by only one person at a time... yet the word "secretary" may be used to describe any of four employees in a large high school. The question in my mind is whether or not the article can correctly be omitted if I'm referring to the secretary, teacher-librarian, etc. at a much smaller school... or to the proprietor of Giovanni's Bistro. I must say I found the omission of the article in your example surprising, but I can see justfication for it if it's optional there & the novelist wants to get on with the show ASAP after filling in a bit of the background.... :-)


    Four centuries ago, other writers left out "the" in:


    Where is he that is born King of the Jews?
    -- Matt. 2:2, KJV


    The Tragedie of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark
    -- Wm. Shakespeare


    We could have a great time discussing why Herod saw Jesus as a potential rival and whether or not Hamlet was the last of his line, but my point is that AFAIK native speakers of English have been leaving out "the" in situations where the rationale is not immediately obvious for quite awhile now. The rule you cited mentions two important factors... the uniqueness of the job & the formality of the job description. In everyday life things may not be quite so simple. But as long as you know rules have exceptions I can't think of a better one. :-))




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Ardith Hinton on Monday, December 02, 2019 11:43:02
    Hi, Ardith Hinton! -> Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 01.12.2019 00:35

    I also don't see any evidence indicating Annabel had been employed
    in the same capacity, but IMHO also there is no ground to suggest
    that a stenographer is as unique position in a firm as its
    President.

    |is in as unique a position

    Maybe it is better to remove "position"?:
    "...but, IMHO, also there is no ground to suggest that a stenographer is as unique in a firm as its President."

    The title of "president" certainly sounds more formal, and is often capitalized. With other job titles, however, the situation may be
    less clear. "Secretary of State" is an official role which is held
    by only one person at a time... yet the word "secretary" may be
    used to describe any of four employees in a large high school. The question in my mind is whether or not the article can correctly be
    omitted if I'm referring to the secretary, teacher-librarian, etc.
    at a much smaller school... or to the proprietor of Giovanni's
    Bistro. I must say I found the omission of the article in your
    example surprising, but I can see justfication for it if it's
    optional there & the novelist wants to get on with the show ASAP
    after filling in a bit of the background....

    Four centuries ago, other writers left out "the" in:

    Where is he that is born King of the Jews?
    -- Matt. 2:2, KJV

    The Tragedie of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark
    -- Wm. Shakespeare

    We could have a great time discussing why Herod saw Jesus as a
    potential rival and whether or not Hamlet was the last of his line,
    but my point is that AFAIK native speakers of English have been
    leaving out "the" in situations where the rationale is not
    immediately obvious for quite awhile now. The rule you cited
    mentions two important factors... the uniqueness of the job & the formality of the job description. In everyday life things may not
    be quite so simple. But as long as you know rules have exceptions I
    can't think of a better one. :-))

    As one Murphy law says, "For every human problem, there is a neat, simple solution; and it is always wrong." ;-)

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Alexander Koryagin on Monday, December 02, 2019 20:01:40
    Hi! Alexander,

    On 02 Dec 19 11:43, you wrote to Ardith Hinton:

    I also don't see any evidence indicating Annabel had been
    employed in the same capacity, but IMHO also there is no ground
    to suggest that a stenographer is as unique position in a firm
    as its President.

    |is in as unique a position

    Maybe it is better to remove "position"?:
    "...but, IMHO, also there is no ground to suggest that a stenographer
    is as unique in a firm as its President."

    You're getting a little lost. The statement is one of fact. In days long past
    there was a time of one-to-one direct professional relationships between a senior executive (say, president) and the organisation's (sole) stenographer.

    A good stenographer is worth a dozen typists. That is to say, a good stenographer would take systematically evaluating a dozen typists, and even then that dozen may fail to possess the required skills.

    In days of old, I had a 24 year long career and knew of only two stenographers at that workplace.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... In memory of a hero: Vicky Taylor, 5 February 1945.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Paul Quinn on Monday, December 02, 2019 20:31:28
    Hi, Paul Quinn! ->Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 02.12.2019 13:01

    A good stenographer is worth a dozen typists. That is to say, a
    good stenographer would take systematically evaluating a dozen
    typists, and even then that dozen may fail to possess the required
    skills.

    But stenographers and typists do different job. A stenographer doesn't type his
    texts; they write speeches down by hand using the special stenographic symbols
    and tricks. The only problem is that nobody can read their scripts. ;-)

    Bye, Paul!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Paul Quinn@2:203/2 to Alexander Koryagin on Monday, December 02, 2019 22:42:59
    Hi! Alexander,

    On 12/03/2019 04:31 AM, you wrote:

    But stenographers and typists do different job. A stenographer doesn't type his texts; they write speeches down by hand using the special stenographic symbols and tricks. The only problem is that nobody can
    read their scripts. ;-)

    Neither can I. That's why they -did- type from their own notes! I don't know who told you that they didn't. Did Ardith? Naughty. ;)

    Although the 'chicken scratchings' form that steno notes may start by using a standard script, often the person would insert their own symbology to account for in-house terms and abbreviations, for example.

    It's similar to the medical field where there is a notation form for even the specification of patients' medication. Ask a nurse, pharmacist or doctor (?maybe) how their 'shorthand' looks for a typical example for: "1 pill, twice a day". (I'm counting on Russian equivalent folk doing the same, of course... /fingers crossed/.)

    The separation of typing duties from stenography was only possible with the introduction of dictatorial equipment. History lesson, finished. Thank you for
    listening. :)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Paul Quinn on Tuesday, December 03, 2019 08:55:58
    Hi, Paul Quinn! ->Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 03.12.2019 00:42

    But stenographers and typists do different job. A stenographer
    doesn't type his texts; they write speeches down by hand using the
    special stenographic symbols and tricks. The only problem is that
    nobody can read their scripts. ;-)

    Neither can I. That's why they - did- type from their own notes! I
    don't know who told you that they didn't. Did Ardith? Naughty. ;)

    I always thought that they didn't type their scripts because actually nobody needs the information they write down. ;-) IMHO, stenography is like the black box recorder on a plane. Just in case. ;-)

    Although the 'chicken scratchings' form that steno notes may start
    by using a standard script, often the person would insert their own symbology to account for in-house terms and abbreviations, for
    example.

    Once I watched a comedy in which the signer (translator) did his job, but the speaker suddenly started speaking in a very non-standard, informal way. The signer was forced desperately invent funny ways to deliver the speech to the audience. It was very funny.

    It's similar to the medical field where there is a notation form
    for even the specification of patients' medication. Ask a nurse, pharmacist or doctor (? maybe) how their 'shorthand' looks for a
    typical example for: "1 pill, twice a day". (I'm counting on
    Russian equivalent folk doing the same, of course... /fingers
    crossed/.)

    Recently I went to the drugstore and the druggist studied a long time what was
    written on my prescription. Then he searched it in the Internet and in five minutes we got the correct name. ;)

    The separation of typing duties from stenography was only possible
    with the introduction of dictatorial equipment. History lesson,
    finished. Thank you for listening. :)

    Well, also I delivered what I wanted. :-)

    Bye, Paul!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Alexander Koryagin on Tuesday, December 03, 2019 11:14:12
    Alexander Koryagin:

    But stenographers and typists do different job.

    Did you mean to say they did different jobs (pl.)?
    I agree with Paul's reply. Proof:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGb_jzaUWOg
    (Candid camera: Woody Allen dictates a letter)

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Anton Shepelev on Tuesday, December 03, 2019 19:59:48
    Hi, Anton Shepelev! ->Alexander Koryagin!
    I read your message from 03.12.2019 12:14


    But stenographers and typists do different job.
    Did you mean to say they did different jobs (pl.)? I agree with
    Paul's reply. Proof:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGb_jzaUWOg
    (Candid camera: Woody Allen dictates a letter)

    Well, I meant that it is possible that a typist is not able to stenograph, and vice versa. Quick typing and stenographing are two different skills.

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Alexander Koryagin on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 12:43:16
    Alexander Koryagin:

    Well, I meant that it is possible that a typist is not
    able to stenograph, ->

    This is likely.

    and vice versa. Quick typing and stenographing are
    two different skills.

    And this isn't, because:

    Quick typing and stenographing are two different skills.

    A stenographer is expected to type his scripts.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Wednesday, December 04, 2019 23:42:07
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    I also don't see any evidence indicating Annabel had been
    employed in the same capacity, but IMHO also there is no
    ground to suggest that a stenographer is as unique position
    in a firm as its President.

    |is in as unique a position

    Maybe it is better to remove "position"?:
    "...but, IMHO, also there is no ground to suggest that a
    stenographer is as unique in a firm as its President."


    From a stylistic POV, yes. I added a third "in" to the sentence, and
    while it's grammatically correct it sounds awkward. Now I reckon you're trying to prune excess verbiage... just as native speakers do when e.g. they leave out "the" if the definite article is not needed for clarity.

    WRT the meaning of the sentence, I hear what Paul is saying too. :-)



    The rule you cited mentions two important factors... the
    uniqueness of the job & the formality of the job description.
    In everyday life things may not be quite so simple. But as
    long as you know rules have exceptions I can't think of a
    better one. :-))

    As one Murphy law says, "For every human problem, there is a
    neat, simple solution; and it is always wrong." ;-)


    Uh-huh. One of the important lessons I learned from studying math is
    that an answer which comes easily is probably wrong, and I've said on more than one occasion here that when people oversimplify matters for young children
    they create difficulties for teachers in the later grades. The same applies both to English language & literature and to science, in my experience. I am delighted to work with readers like you who wait patiently while I mull things over. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Ardith Hinton on Thursday, December 05, 2019 11:50:46
    Ardith Hinton to Alexander Koryagin

    here is no ground to suggest that a stenographer is as
    unique position in a firm as its President.
    is in as unique a position

    Stenotrapher and president are both positions, so I do not
    see why the "in" is required. What do say to: "Stenographer
    is as uniqe a position in firm as president."?

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Anton Shepelev on Thursday, December 05, 2019 12:21:04
    I wrote:

    What do say to: "Stenographer is as uniqe a position in
    firm as president."? What do say to: "Stenographer is
    as uniqe a position in firm as president."?

    Forgive me the typos:

    What do *you* say to: "Stenographer is as *unique* a
    position in *a* firm as president."?

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Paul Quinn on Saturday, December 07, 2019 23:46:48
    Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

    Maybe it is better to remove "position"?:
    "...but, IMHO, also there is no ground to suggest that a
    stenographer is as unique in a firm as its President."

    You're getting a little lost. The statement is one of fact.
    In days long past there was a time of one-to-one direct
    professional relationships between a senior executive (say,
    president) and the organisation's (sole) stenographer.


    Yes... I noticed that in the school system. The senior "secretary" took dictation when the principal wanted to send a letter, worked overtime to attend & make notes at important meetings, and typed out the results. People who do this sort of work are often quite skilled at correcting other people's errors in spelling & grammar too, including my own... [blush].



    A good stenographer is worth a dozen typists.


    Thankyou. My mother was a stenographer. Like the "secretary" at a small school she had various other duties as well. But she told me that when she was taking "business courses" she chose to learn bookkeeping & shorthand, both of which were elective subjects, while the majority of people apparently didn't believe they would be successful or couldn't be bothered.



    In days of old, I had a 24 year long career and knew of
    only two stenographers at that workplace.


    As my father might have said, they're "as scarce as hens' teeth"... especially nowadays. When I mentioned to one of our daughter's young friends awhile ago that my mother was a stenographer she didn't understand what I was referring to although she herself has a university degree. Stenographers may have been done a disservice by the common tendency to lump them together with anybody who can type, use a copying machine, and answer the phone. Years ago there were jokes about the "steno pool"... more likely a "typing pool" AFAIC. And I agree that recording devices may have changed the picture as well. ;-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384.125 to Ardith Hinton on Sunday, December 08, 2019 19:22:09
    Hi! Ardith,

    On 12/07/2019 11:46 PM, Ardith Hinton -> Paul Quinn wrote:

    As my father might have said, they're "as scarce as hens' teeth"... especially nowadays. When I mentioned to one of our
    daughter's young friends awhile ago that my mother was a stenographer
    she didn't understand what I was referring to although she herself has a university degree.

    How many would remember who a 'computor' was? I never knew any but I do recall
    the next generation of data entry 'operators'.

    Stenographers may have been done a disservice by the
    common tendency to lump them together with anybody who can type, use a copying machine, and answer the phone. Years ago there were jokes about the "steno pool"... more likely a "typing pool" AFAIC. And I agree that recording devices may have changed the picture as well. ;-)

    Yes, later and still last century, I knew a cardio specialist who used to dictate to his receptionist via a hand-held tape recorder (I think, though it may have been a dedicated device). He used some form of formal directions probably in an agreed 'verbal shorthand'.

    I vaguely recall that in my earlier example, the O/C of the Typing Pool may have been #1 substitute for -the- stenographer. If not, then she would have ensured one of the girls would have had the required skills as a short-term replacement. I recall her 'training huddles' in hushed conversation with two or three other girls at times.

    That was all so long ago. In the early 80s typists were being phased out as fodder to provide 'balance' in pay increases deals won by unions. Supervisors and clerical staff were expected to produce their own formal output via automation (early computers), while skilled staff were converted or 'let go'. Later, the clerks became the fodder. I got on my own terms.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: "Oops!" --unknown (just before the Big Bang) (3:640/1384.125)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Ardith Hinton on Monday, December 09, 2019 10:41:08
    Hi, Ardith Hinton : Paul Quinn!
    I read your message from 08.12.2019 00:46


    A good stenographer is worth a dozen typists.

    Thankyou. My mother was a stenographer. Like the "secretary" at a
    small school she had various other duties as well. But she told me
    that when she was taking "business courses" she chose to learn
    bookkeeping & shorthand, both of which were elective subjects,
    while the majority of people apparently didn't believe they would
    be successful or couldn't be bothered.

    So did I. I was envy looking at shorthand writing, but I knew for myself that I
    would never manage to learn it. ;-)

    In days of old, I had a 24 year long career and knew of only two
    stenographers at that workplace.

    As my father might have said, they're "as scarce as hens' teeth"... especially nowadays. When I mentioned to one of our daughter's
    young friends awhile ago that my mother was a stenographer she
    didn't understand what I was referring to although she herself has
    a university degree.

    Probably, stenographers disappeared after the dictaphone had been invented.

    (is "the" correct here?)


    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Paul Quinn on Monday, December 09, 2019 10:49:24
    Hi, Paul Quinn! ->Ardith Hinton
    I read your message from 08.12.2019 12:22

    That was all so long ago. In the early 80s typists were being
    phased out as fodder to provide 'balance' in pay increases deals
    won by unions. Supervisors and clerical staff were expected to
    produce their own formal output via automation (early computers),
    while skilled staff were converted or 'let go'. Later, the clerks
    became the fodder. I got on my own terms.

    Why "fodder"? Is it food for cattle?

    Bye, Paul!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Alexander Koryagin on Monday, December 09, 2019 19:27:11
    Hi! Alexander,

    On 09 Dec 19 10:49, you wrote to me:

    while skilled staff were converted or 'let go'. Later, the clerks
    became the fodder. I got on my own terms.

    I inadvertently ommitted a word. While not being important, it does affect meaning; the last sentence should read 'I got out on my own terms'. A re-organisation had left me with no foreseeable future in the new version of my
    workplace, so I resigned.

    Why "fodder"? Is it food for cattle?

    Yes, metaphorically. Something easily found in abundance. Generally this means the actual workers, not the supervisors.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... Tuesday is Soylent Green day.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Alexander Koryagin on Monday, December 16, 2019 15:22:18
    Alexander Koryagin:

    Probably, stenographers disappeared after the dictaphone
    had been invented.

    I think they coexisted for a long time.

    (is "the" correct here?)

    Yes, required.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Anton Shepelev on Wednesday, December 18, 2019 23:28:22
    Hi, Anton! Recently you said, in a message to yourself:

    I wrote:

    What do say to: "Stenographer is as uniqe a position in
    firm as president."? What do say to: "Stenographer is
    as uniqe a position in firm as president."?

    Forgive me the typos:


    Of course. I've noticed errors in my own writing a few minutes or a few hours after a message has scanned out, and I'm glad to see that folks like you & Alexander self-correct if I take awhile to respond... which I tend to do because you ask good questions which require a bit of thought on my part. :-)



    What do *you* say to: "Stenographer is as *unique* a
    position in *a* firm as president."?


    Hmm. The bulk of my experience isn't WRT business but WRT clubs and professional organizations with a president, a secretary, and a treasurer. It seems to me that's the sort of thing Alexander was referring to. By custom or by law a business may be required to have only one president. OTOH... as Paul says... how many stenographers does it need & are there others available? ;-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Paul Quinn on Saturday, December 21, 2019 15:40:08
    Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

    But stenographers and typists do different job.
    A stenographer doesn't type his texts; they write
    speeches down by hand using the special stenographic
    symbols and tricks. The only problem is that nobody
    can read their scripts. ;-)

    Neither can I. That's why they -did- type from their
    own notes!


    As I mentioned to Alexander on Oct. 30th.... :-Q

    I said they "take dictation", however... and I realize now that the word "take" is one of those deceptively short, simple words in English with a multiplicity of definitions. What I meant to say is that stenographers write down by hand the other person's exact words & type them from their own notes. IMHO deciphering such notes can't easily be assigned to the typing pool. :-)



    Although the 'chicken scratchings' form that steno notes
    may start by using a standard script, often the person
    would insert their own symbology to account for in-house
    terms and abbreviations, for example.


    Yes, that's what a friend of ours who uses shorthand tells us. The boss may have "pet phrases" which the steno learns to abbreviate too.... ;-)



    It's similar to the medical field where there is a
    notation form for even the specification of patients'
    medication. Ask a nurse, pharmacist or doctor (?maybe)
    how their 'shorthand' looks for a typical example for:
    "1 pill, twice a day".


    In hospital you may also notice terms like NPO (= nothing by mouth) and PRN (= as necessary)... particularly where surgery is involved.

    Until the mid-twentieth century, in this country at least, patients were expected to do as they were told & did not have prescription medications with identifying labels. Things changed when someone in the field brought to other people's attention that if the patient had accidentally or deliberately taken an overdose of little white pills the hospital staff might need to know what the pills contained. Older doctors still use "shorthand" based on Latin when they are writing prescriptions, but I think this may be more a matter of custom & convenience than the desire to preserve an aura of mystery. Since I remember a bit of Latin from my high school days I used to enjoy figuring out that e.g. "BID" represents a Latin phrase meaning "twice a day"... but now we have a young GP who uses a computer to generate prescriptions in English. He doesn't waste a lot of time typing out polysyllabic names of medications &/or instructions such as "apply to affected area(s) twice daily". I imagine that with the aid of the computer he has found other ways of working quickly. :-)



    (I'm counting on Russian equivalent folk doing the same,
    of course... /fingers crossed/.)


    The same applies in other fields of endeavour. As an ex-waitress I often abbreviate "orange juice" as "OJ", e.g., on my shopping lists. I'm not trying to hide anything from my nearest & dearest... but I remember how if my mother needed sanitary napkins or whatever she tended to use shorthand. :-))



    The separation of typing duties from stenography was only
    possible with the introduction of dictatorial equipment.


    I think you mean "dictation", but I get the drift.... ;-)



    History lesson, finished. Thank you for listening. :)


    As I get older I appreciate that my ancestors knew stuff I wish I'd paid more attention to while they were still alive. If I tend to ramble that may be at least in part because I've lost a few marbles. But I am also aware that I may be among the last few people on earth who know such things, and it seems people who haven't already heard them often enjoy my stories... [grin].




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Ardith Hinton on Sunday, December 22, 2019 10:58:36
    Hi! Ardith,

    On 21 Dec 19 15:40, you wrote to me:

    As I get older I appreciate that my ancestors knew stuff I
    wish I'd paid more attention to while they were still alive. If I
    tend to ramble that may be at least in part because I've lost a few marbles. But I am also aware that I may be among the last few people
    on earth who know such things, and it seems people who haven't already heard them often enjoy my stories... [grin].

    In my working career I experienced many folk dying (don't worry, it was 'old age' in many cases). Now, in my older years, I often wonder who else would remember them. Then, I congratulate myself for at least I can still remember them.

    These days I sometimes 'come to' from having carried on a lecture to my house mates: one Aussie Lorikeet (who hates me) and one South American Sun Conure. It pays in one's latter years to enjoy a captive audience, and, also to still have the ability to recover consciousness. ;)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... Do not open tagline. No user-serviceable parts inside.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Ardith Hinton on Sunday, December 22, 2019 15:08:28
    Hi, Ardith Hinton! ->Paul Quinn
    I read your message from 21.12.2019 16:40

    now we have a young GP who uses a computer to generate
    prescriptions in English. He doesn't waste a lot of time typing out polysyllabic names of medications &/or instructions such as "apply
    to affected area(s) twice daily". I imagine that with the aid of
    the computer he has found other ways of working quickly.

    The more we live the cooler it becomes. I even believe that now the computer itself can type the speech which you say to the microphone.

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Monday, December 30, 2019 14:32:04
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    now we have a young GP who uses a computer to generate
    prescriptions in English. He doesn't waste a lot of time
    typing out polysyllabic names of medications &/or
    instructions such as "apply to affected area(s) twice
    daily". I imagine that with the aid of the computer he
    has found other ways of working quickly.

    The more we live the cooler it becomes. I even believe
    that now the computer itself can type the speech which
    you say to the microphone.


    Yes, our doctor uses a microphone to dictate notes he wants added to the patient's file... or "chart", as they say in the MedBiz. The words appear in print on his computer monitor & he types corrections as needed. As yet the software is no match for a good stenographer in terms of accuracy. Like a lot of other software I've seen it's no match for a good English teacher either... but I understand he likes it because it gives him almost instant results. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)