• to pull the door to against

    From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to All on Monday, December 23, 2019 07:46:12
    Hi, all!

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    She turned her head as there was a light dignified knocking at the front
    door. I went out and opened it. Gatsby, pale as death, with his hands
    plunged like weights in his coat pockets, was standing in a puddle of
    water glaring tragically into my eyes.

    With his hands still in his coat pockets he stalked by me into the hall,
    turned sharply as if he were on a wire, and disappeared into the living-
    room. It wasn't a bit funny. Aware of the loud beating of my own heart I
    pulled the door to against the increasing rain.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    It "against" a verb? ;-)

    Bye, all!
    Alexander Koryagin

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384.125 to Alexander Koryagin on Monday, December 23, 2019 16:06:21
    Hi! Alexander,

    On 12/23/2019 03:46 PM, you wrote to All:

    pulled the door to against the increasing rain.

    Something is unsaid here, as it unnecessary... well, in the writer's view. What are the possible conditions for a door to remain at rest: open or closed.
    From the inside, we push a door open; or, pull a door closed.

    It's wet outside. He pulls the door to keep the rain outside. The door is closed. Everyone would know this. Pull door, door closes. Silly isn't it. :)

    Cheers,
    Paul.

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  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Paul Quinn on Tuesday, December 24, 2019 08:30:38
    Hi, Paul Quinn : Alexander Koryagin!
    I read your message from 23.12.2019 09:06

    pulled the door to against the increasing rain.

    Something is unsaid here, as it unnecessary... well, in the
    writer's view. What are the possible conditions for a door to
    remain at rest: open or closed. From the inside, we push a door
    open; or, pull a door closed.

    I see, but in Russia, in such cases, we often ask the interlocutor, "Now say it
    again in a human way." ;)

    It's wet outside. He pulls the door to keep the rain outside. The
    door is closed. Everyone would know this. Pull door, door closes.
    Silly isn't it. :)

    By the way, how should I pronounce the name "Gatsby"? Should the last sound be [ai] or [ee]? No questions if he were Gatsbe. Is there any rule?

    Bye, Paul!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384.125 to Alexander Koryagin on Tuesday, December 24, 2019 18:09:28
    Hi! Alexander,

    On 12/24/2019 04:30 PM, you wrote:

    I see, but in Russia, in such cases, we often ask the interlocutor, "Now say it again in a human way." ;)

    They must be prize-winning tongue-twisters ;)

    By the way, how should I pronounce the name "Gatsby"? Should the last sound be [ai] or [ee]? No questions if he were Gatsbe. Is there any rule?

    The final sound is [ee].

    I don't recall having learned rules that I can recall. I and my classmates at the time (late 1950s) learned the black & blue knuckle way, by rote. Either we
    repeated a method correctly or we were rewarded with a smack to the knuckles (till black & blue).

    Cheers,
    Paul.

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  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Tuesday, December 24, 2019 13:56:13
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

    Aware of the loud beating of my own heart I pulled
    the door to against the increasing rain.

    It "against" a verb? ;-)


    No, it's a preposition. I think the difficulty here is that "to" may
    be used either as a preposition or, less commonly, as an adverb. :-)


    I pulled the door to = I shut the door

    against the rain = to prevent the rain from coming in




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Ardith Hinton on Wednesday, December 25, 2019 08:50:24
    Hi, Ardith Hinton! ->Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 24.12.2019 14:56

    Aware of the loud beating of my own heart I pulled the door to
    against the increasing rain.

    It "against" a verb? ;-)

    No, it's a preposition. I think the difficulty here is that "to"
    may be used either as a preposition or, less commonly, as an
    adverb. :-)

    I pulled the door to = I shut the door

    against the rain = to prevent the rain from coming in

    Well, if "to" was a preposition give me an example when it is a adverb.

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/360 to Alexander Koryagin on Thursday, December 26, 2019 20:00:27
    On 23/12/2019 12:46 a.m., Alexander Koryagin : All wrote:

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    [snip]

    With his hands still in his coat pockets he stalked by me into the hall, turned sharply as if he were on a wire, and disappeared into the living- room. It wasn't a bit funny. Aware of the loud beating of my own heart I pulled the door to against the increasing rain.
    ----- The end of the citation -----



    It "against" a verb? ;-)

    Hello Alexander,

    What a strange sentence Fitzgerald is using! At first, I thought this was a printing error. But lo and behold, it is exactly the same in physical print. The sentence would sound better to me without the "to" in front of "against" and still render the meaning well enough.

    But apparently, Fitz is using an archaic form of "against" as a conjunction. The use of the word hear is to mean "in preparation of time or a delay" or "to oppose" something.

    I've read the book many years ago, and don't recall too many issues like the above. I probably just assumed they were printing errors and moved on.

    Hope this helps!

    PS. You picked a challenging book if you want learn english. There are probably many more archaic uses of words in it.

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  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to August Abolins on Thursday, December 26, 2019 20:53:06
    Hi, August Abolins! ->Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 26.12.2019 21:00

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    [snip]
    With his hands still in his coat pockets he stalked by me into the hall,
    turned sharply as if he were on a wire, and disappeared into the living-
    room. It wasn't a bit funny. Aware of the loud beating of my own heart I
    pulled the door to against the increasing rain.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    Is "against" a verb?

    What a strange sentence Fitzgerald is using! At first, I thought
    this was a printing error. But lo and behold, it is exactly the
    same in physical print. The sentence would sound better to me
    without the "to" in front of "against" and still render the meaning
    well enough.

    But apparently, Fitz is using an archaic form of "against" as a conjunction. The use of the word hear is to mean "in preparation of
    time or a delay" or "to oppose" something.

    I've read the book many years ago, and don't recall too many issues
    like the above. I probably just assumed they were printing errors
    and moved on.

    I also tried to find some information on this account, and I found out that "pull to" is an idiom, and when used with "door" it means:

    https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/pull+to
    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    2. To drag, tug, or yank something shut. A noun or pronoun is used between "pull" and "to."
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    So in normal language the sentence will look like this:

    "... I closed the door because the rain was increasing."

    Bye, August!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/360 to Alexander Koryagin on Thursday, December 26, 2019 21:43:24
    On 26/12/2019 1:53 p.m., Alexander Koryagin : August Abolins wrote:

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    [snip]
    ..I pulled the door to against the increasing rain.
    ----- The end of the citation -----


    https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/pull+to
    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    2. To drag, tug, or yank something shut. A noun or pronoun is used between "pull" and "to."
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    So in normal language the sentence will look like this:
    "... I closed the door because the rain was increasing."

    Excellent! So, why couldn't Fitz just write that, eh? <G> The story is set in
    the 20's, so the English that people spoke wasn't *that* archaic.

    BTW, "to pull the door" would indicate to me that it was an outward swinging door that he was trying to close from the inside and the "against" may be attempting to imply a heavy rain beating at the door at the moment.

    If I recall correctly, the narrator is staying in a cottage next door to Gatsby's mansion. The cottage may have only had a flimsy door that the rain could beat against very easily.

    For a read consistent with the season, try Dicken's A Christmas Carol. There are few archaic language samples in that one!

    BTW.. I am liking your Reformator program very much! I think I got the right routine of copy-paste-quote-copy-paste that works for me. I like the way it skips quoting the citing section.

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  • From Mike Powell@1:2320/105 to AUGUST ABOLINS on Thursday, December 26, 2019 18:30:00
    With his hands still in his coat pockets he stalked by me into the hall, turned sharply as if he were on a wire, and disappeared into the living- room. It wasn't a bit funny. Aware of the loud beating of my own heart I pulled the door to against the increasing rain.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    What a strange sentence Fitzgerald is using! At first, I thought this was a printing error. But lo and behold, it is exactly the same in physical print. The sentence would sound better to me without the "to" in front of "against" and still render the meaning well enough.

    In this part of the US, the word "to" in a context such as this would mean
    the same as "closed" or "shut." If I were to say I was closing the door "against" the rain, I would personally be indicating that it was a
    wind-driven rain.

    That would, for me, be a similar usage to Bob Segar's usage of "against" in
    the song "Against the Wind." :)

    Mike


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  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to August Abolins on Thursday, December 26, 2019 19:46:09
    Hi August -- on Dec 26 2019 at 21:43, you wrote:

    Excellent! So, why couldn't Fitz just write that, eh? <G> The
    story is set in the 20's, so the English that people spoke wasn't
    *that* archaic.

    He was a bit weird! :-)

    BTW, "to pull the door" would indicate to me that it was an outward swinging door that he was trying to close from the inside and the
    "against" may be attempting to imply a heavy rain beating at the
    door at the moment.

    To make matters worse, in this country and in the US, most front doors
    swing inward so as not to hit the person standing outside!

    If I recall correctly, the narrator is staying in a cottage next
    door to Gatsby's mansion. The cottage may have only had a flimsy
    door that the rain could beat against very easily.

    I'd think the quality of the door would have less to do with raining
    beating than would the presence or absence of a roof or overhang on the outside?

    For a read consistent with the season, try Dicken's A Christmas
    Carol. There are few archaic language samples in that one!

    Good recomendation - although quite a few cultural references won't be
    very clear!

    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to August Abolins on Friday, December 27, 2019 10:33:42
    Hi, August Abolins! - >Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 26.12.2019 22:43

    For a read consistent with the season, try Dicken's A Christmas
    Carol. There are few archaic language samples in that one!

    "The Great Gatsby" was presented me as a paper book. I like English paper books
    very much because I can do my notes on pages. When I complete reading I peruse
    all the notes and refresh in memory those words that were new or unclear when I read the book. It is a more effective way to learn words.

    BTW.. I am liking your Reformator program very much! I think I got
    the right routine of copy-paste-quote-copy-paste that works for me.
    I like the way it skips quoting the citing section.

    I also want to clarify some formatting options. If you do just "format" it means that both quoted and not-quoted text will be wrapped - the lines will be chopped by "line length".

    If you make "unformat not-quoted text only" the quoted paragraphs will be formatted, but the simple text paragraphs become in the form of one long line -- the form that looks well on the screens of any size. That's why we rather should not format "our simple text" while writing messages to the Fidonet. Now many people write messages to the Fidonet using small gadgets with narrow screens (like smart phones). We should think of them.

    After completing your message it is a good idea to select all the text (except the title) and make "unformat not-quoted text only".

    Usually, when you read messages, standard Fidonet software unformat the paragraphs with quotation by itself, so they look well at the screens of any size. But simple text in the form of chopped lines will look badly on small size gadgets.


    PS: But nobody demands to write here in a super perfect way! ;-))

    Bye, August!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/360 to Alexander Koryagin on Friday, December 27, 2019 18:35:31
    On 27/12/2019 3:33 a.m., Alexander Koryagin : August Abolins wrote:

    BTW.. I am liking your Reformator program very much!...

    I also want to clarify some formatting options...

    Thank you for the tips. I've crossposted your message into FUTURE4FIDO, and working on a reply to be posted there.

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  • From August Abolins@2:221/360 to Alexander Koryagin on Friday, December 27, 2019 19:47:57
    On 27/12/2019 3:33 a.m., Alexander Koryagin : August Abolins wrote:

    "The Great Gatsby" was presented me as a paper book. I like
    English paper books very much because I can do my notes on
    pages. When I complete reading I peruse all the notes and
    refresh in memory those words that were new or unclear when I
    read the book. It is a more effective way to learn words.

    There is not a whole lot of room to write in the margins in most books. Your writing style must be very small and neat! But I have done something similar when certain words and phrases impressed me. I kept a separate journal with notes for each particular book. Then, I'd revisit my notes and try to use those
    words and phrases in regular conversation to either impress or freak people out.

    The first book I started doing that with was "Dracula - Bram Stoker", many many
    years ago! I thought the language in there was amazing, and fun to trip-up other people with.

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  • From August Abolins@2:221/360 to Dallas Hinton on Saturday, December 28, 2019 03:20:21
    In a post between "Dallas Hinton : August Abolins", on 12/26/2019 12:46 PM

    BTW, "to pull the door" would indicate to me that it was an
    outward swinging door that he was trying to close..

    To make matters worse, in this country and in the US, most
    front doors swing inward so as not to hit the person
    standing outside!

    Hi Dallas,

    As an aside, I think the movie versions of that scene depict a screen door. Most of those kind do swing to the outside.

    One time, I needed to replace an interior door to swing in a particular direction. All I had at the time was a door with hinges on the wrong side. I flipped the door vertically, and voila! ..I had a door that would operate as required. The hole for the door knob was a bit higher as a result, but I didn't
    need that part. <g> It was a door for a utility room, so it didn't have to look pretty and perfect.


    ../|ug

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  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to August Abolins on Friday, December 27, 2019 23:01:03
    Hi August -- on Dec 28 2019 at 03:20, you wrote:

    As an aside, I think the movie versions of that scene depict a
    screen door. Most of those kind do swing to the outside.

    That's interesting - I've never seen the movie(s) but yes, our screen
    door swings out also. Doesn't provide much rain protection, though, as
    it's at least 1/2 screen (the rest is glass).

    One time, I needed to replace an interior door to swing in a
    particular direction. All I had at the time was a door with hinges
    on the wrong side. I flipped the door vertically, and voila! ..I
    had a door that would operate as required. The hole for the door
    knob was a bit higher as a result, but I didn't need that part. <g>
    It was a door for a utility room, so it didn't have to look pretty
    and perfect.

    Perfect!!


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Paul Quinn on Saturday, December 28, 2019 14:20:36
    Hi, Paul! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

    What are the possible conditions for a door to remain
    at rest: open or closed.


    Hmm. Unless a door is completely open or closed, it may not remain as you left it... and according to my CANADIAN OXFORD DICTIONARY "pull to" may be used when a boat or a bus comes to a stop in a predetermined location. :-)



    From the inside, we push a door open; or, pull a door
    closed.


    That's what I found confusing here. In Canada the doors of private residences generally open inward, but the doors of public buildings & suchlike generally open outward because of some emergency years ago in which folks were crushed by the mass of others who in their panic didn't realize the person who got to the door first needed to be allowed enough space to open it. Since you live in the southern hemisphere, where everything is upside down, YMMV. And I know very little about how things were done in Long Island a century ago. :-Q



    Pull door, door closes. Silly isn't it. :)


    Problem solved (maybe). With a bit of research I found out that to some folks at least what matters is not the direction of travel toward or away from any humans involved but how close the object is to its designated target. When we "pull a door to", we bring it closer to the door frame. I guess "pull to" makes more sense from the door's POV than it did from mine at first.

    I learned something today, thanks to you. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Ardith Hinton on Saturday, December 28, 2019 18:21:20
    Re: to pull the door to against
    By: Ardith Hinton to Paul Quinn on Sat Dec 28 2019 14:20:36


    When we "pull a door to", we bring it closer to the door frame.

    yup.. same with "push to" (see below)...

    I guess "pull to" makes more sense from the door's POV than it did
    from mine at first.

    then you have folks like myself... i use either "push to" or "pull to" depending on which side of the door the victim will be on when they exit ;)

    "hey, push the door to as you leave" - door opens out

    "pull the door to on your way out" - door opens in

    in either case, the goal of closing the door but not all the way is accomplished...



    )\/(ark
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  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to August Abolins on Monday, December 30, 2019 21:21:20
    Hi, August Abolins! ->Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 27.12.2019 20:47

    "The Great Gatsby" was presented me as a paper book. I like
    English paper books very much because I can do my notes on pages.
    When I complete reading I peruse all the notes and refresh in
    memory those words that were new or unclear when I read the book.
    It is a more effective way to learn words.

    There is not a whole lot of room to write in the margins in most
    books. Your writing style must be very small and neat!

    I like do it with an automatic pencil with a soft 0.5 mm lead. It allows to write small and neat notes, as you said. I'd also recommend to write symbols separately. Of course such noting helps only after a certain level of knowledge
    -- if you don't know many word your notes will cover all the pages! In this case the value of notes is different.

    But I have done something similar when certain words and phrases
    impressed me. I kept a separat journal with notes for each
    particular book. Then, I'd revisit my notes and try to use those
    words and phrases in regular conversation to either impress or
    freak people out.

    It it's also a way out, but I prefer to read books while lying on my sofa, and it is not very convenient to use a separate journal then.

    The first book I started doing that with was "Dracula - Bram
    Stoker", many many years ago! I thought the language in there was
    amazing, and fun to trip-up other people with.

    For me English is a connection with the rest of the world, as is my satellite dish. But of course there are many masterstroke books. The most comfortable book in my library is Ivanhoe, by Walter Scott. I really have a rest when I read it. It full of great humor, actions, emotions.

    Bye, August!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to August Abolins on Monday, December 30, 2019 21:39:54
    Hi, August Abolins! ->Dallas Hinton
    I read your message from 28.12.2019 04:20

    One time, I needed to replace an interior door to swing in a
    particular direction. All I had at the time was a door with hinges
    on the wrong side. I flipped the door vertically, and voila!..I had
    a door that would operate as required. The hole for the door knob
    was a bit higher as a result, but I didn't need that part. <g> It
    was a door for a utility room, so it didn't have to look pretty and perfect.

    IMHO, you should have done over the hinges on the door, too. Your door at first
    had been hinged from up to down, then, it could be hinged only from down to up. You can't just revolt the door and hinge it?

    Bye, August!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2019

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/360 to Alexander Koryagin on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 02:07:08
    In a post between "Alexander Koryagin : August Abolins", on 12/30/2019 2:21 PM

    For me English is a connection with the rest of the world,
    as is my satellite dish. But of course there are many
    masterstroke books. The most comfortable book in my library
    is Ivanhoe, by Walter Scott. I really have a rest when I
    read it. It full of great humor, actions, emotions.

    I'm impressed with your likes. Ivanhoe is quite the epic and filled with very "formal" yet an ancient way of speaking and writing.

    L-o-n-g sentences!

    I delved into to it to get a refresher.. and one of the first words that I did *not* know right away was here: "The curse of St Withold upon these infernal porkers!" said the swine-herd, after blowing his horn obstreperously,.." I mean, "obstreperous" is not a word that anyone is likely to whip out in conversation. <g> But maybe I will *now* ! LOL

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  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to August Abolins on Monday, December 30, 2019 17:33:13
    Hi August -- on Dec 31 2019 at 02:07, you wrote:

    that I did *not* know right away was here: "The curse of St Withold
    upon these infernal porkers!" said the swine-herd, after blowing his
    horn obstreperously,.." I mean, "obstreperous" is not a word that
    anyone is likely to whip out in conversation. <g> But maybe I
    will *now* ! LOL

    I must confess that in my teaching days I would use the word to calm
    excited students: "Now class, don't be obstreperous!". It puzzled them
    enough that they settled down (at least for a bit!).


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/360 to Alexander Koryagin on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 18:03:37
    On 30/12/2019 2:39 p.m., Alexander Koryagin : August Abolins wrote:

    IMHO, you should have done over the hinges on the door, too.
    Your door at first had been hinged from up to down, then, it
    could be hinged only from down to up. You can't just revolt the
    door and hinge it?

    Nope. Did not have to fiddle with the hinges. Upside down, the door swings inwards to the room, and the hinges were on the opposite side, which was perfectly fine!

    In the old original senario, the door swung inwards with the hinges on the right side of the frame.

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  • From August Abolins@2:221/360 to Dallas Hinton on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 18:28:58
    On 30/12/2019 10:33 a.m., Dallas Hinton : August Abolins wrote:

    Hi August -- on Dec 31 2019 at 02:07, you wrote:


    ...."The curse of St
    Withold upon these infernal porkers!" said the swine-herd,
    after blowing his horn obstreperously,.." I
    mean, "obstreperous" is not a word that anyone is likely to
    whip out in conversation. <g> But maybe I will *now*! LOL

    I must confess that in my teaching days I would use the word to
    calm excited students: "Now class, don't be obstreperous!". It
    puzzled them enough that they settled down (at least for a
    bit!).

    Heheh! That would certainly catch them off guard (like when a dog tilts its head when it hears an unusual sound for the first time). I can just picture the kids doing something like that!

    I'd upgrade the phrase and call kids like that "you little infernal obstreperous porkers" <G>

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1
    * Origin: nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to August Abolins on Tuesday, December 31, 2019 13:10:07
    Hi August -- on Dec 31 2019 at 18:28, you wrote:

    I'd upgrade the phrase and call kids like that "you little infernal obstreperous porkers" <G>

    I might well have thought that, but that phrase crosses the boundary
    into insulting/rude, which wouldn't be appropriate in the context.


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to August Abolins on Wednesday, January 01, 2020 13:50:44
    Hi, August Abolins : Alexander Koryagin!
    I read your message from 31.12.2019 03:07

    For me English is a connection with the rest of the world, as is
    my satellite dish. But of course there are many masterstroke
    books. The most comfortable book in my library is Ivanhoe, by
    Walter Scott. I really have a rest when I read it. It full of
    great humor, actions, emotions.

    I'm impressed with your likes. Ivanhoe is quite the epic and filled
    with very "formal" yet an ancient way of speaking and writing.

    Well, my first meeting with th original ended similarly. But after years I returned to this book. There is energy and life there.

    L-o-n-g sentences!

    Such sentences got me down when I tried to read the second book about Robinson Crusoe adventures. And the style was very tedious, too.

    I delved into to it to get a refresher.. and one of the first words
    that I did *not* know right away was here: "The curse of St Withold
    upon these infernal porkers!" said the swine-herd, after blowing
    his horn obstreperously,.." I mean, "obstreperous" is not a word
    that anyone is likely to whip out in conversation. <g> But maybe I
    will *now*! LOL

    As for Ivanhoe, I've got a nice Russian translation. I can't tell you the name of that witty translator -- the book was read so many times by me and till me, so it had lost the cover and first pages. ;-) I'd suggest to you to start with Russian translations.

    I know there are several translations of this book into Russian, and not all of
    them I like. All of them readable; they differ IMHO by the size of the translator's sense of humor. ;)

    Bye, August!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2020

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/360 to Alexander Koryagin on Thursday, January 02, 2020 18:05:36
    On 01/01/2020 6:50 a.m., Alexander Koryagin : August Abolins wrote:

    I'm impressed with your likes. Ivanhoe is quite the epic and
    filled with very "formal" yet an ancient way of speaking and
    writing.

    Well, my first meeting with th original ended similarly. But
    after years I returned to this book. There is energy and life
    there.

    Hello Alexander!

    I find many of the classics between 1850 to 1950 are worth discovery or rediscovery.

    Wuthering Heights (Bronte) has great characters, witty conversations, and fun turns of phrase.


    Such sentences got me down when I tried to read the second book
    about Robinson Crusoe adventures. And the style was very
    tedious, too.

    Second book = The Farther Adventures of RC? Apparently, the stories of RC have
    been suggested to be based on real events.

    I have to admit, that I don't think I ever finished reading the *first* story of RC. I am willing to give old books another chance.


    As for Ivanhoe, I've got a nice Russian translation. I can't
    tell you the name of that witty translator -- the book was read
    so many times by me and till me, so it had lost the cover and
    first pages. I'd suggest to you to start with Russian
    translations.

    There is absolutely no chance that I will be able to read Russian. ;)

    Speaking of Russian and translations, I recently learned about the sci-fi books
    by the Strugatsky brothers. I have Doomed City on my list.

    About the book: "The Doomed City was so politically risky that the Strugatsky brothers kept its existence a complete secret even from their closest friends for sixteen years after its completion in 1972. It was only published in Russia
    during perestroika in the late 1980s, the last of their works to see publication. It was translated into a host of European languages, and now appears in English in a major new effort by acclaimed translator Andrew Bromfield."

    I have enjoyed the english translations of some books by Dostoevsky and Tolstoy. They are great epics of life and consequences.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1
    * Origin: nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/360 to Dallas Hinton on Thursday, January 02, 2020 18:10:38
    On 31/12/2019 6:10 a.m., Dallas Hinton : August Abolins wrote:

    I'd upgrade the phrase and call kids like that "you little
    infernal obstreperous porkers" <G>

    I might well have thought that, but that phrase crosses the
    boundary into insulting/rude, which wouldn't be appropriate in
    the context.

    Hi Dallas!

    Well.. one could always say that with a little smile, or hand out cookies and candies for the kids that do settle down and behave. <G>

    But I hear stories from teachers that kids who launch accusations of abuse from
    teachers who in so much as touch them on the shoulder.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1
    * Origin: nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to August Abolins on Thursday, January 02, 2020 20:40:00
    Hi, August Abolins! ->Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 02.01.2020 19:05


    I'm impressed with your likes. Ivanhoe is quite the epic and
    filled with very "formal" yet an ancient way of speaking and
    writing.

    Well, my first meeting with th original ended similarly. But after
    years I returned to this book. There is energy and life there.

    Hello Alexander!

    I find many of the classics between 1850 to 1950 are worth
    discovery or rediscovery.

    Wuthering Heights (Bronte) has great characters, witty
    conversations, and fun turns of phrase.

    Everything is all right. Except the motivation for reading new books. ;-|

    Such sentences got me down when I tried to read the second book
    about Robinson Crusoe adventures. And the style was very tedious,
    too.

    Second book = The Farther Adventures of RC? Apparently, the stories
    of RC have been suggested to be based on real events.

    Unlikely. Even famous Jules Verne had never been at sea, and in general he had extremely vague knowledge about seamanship. And such his thing as "Off on the comet" also suggests strongly about Verne's drug addiction. ;)

    I have to admit, that I don't think I ever finished reading the
    *first* story of RC. I am willing to give old books another chance.

    As for Ivanhoe, I've got a nice Russian translation. I can't tell
    you the name of that witty translator -- the book was read so many
    times by me and till me, so it had lost the cover and first pages.
    I'd suggest to you to start with Russian translations.

    There is absolutely no chance that I will be able to read Russian.

    It is difficult to say here who is who. ;)

    Speaking of Russian and translations, I recently learned about the
    sci-fi books by the Strugatsky brothers. I have Doomed City on my
    list.

    I am not a big fan of it, although recently I've had an idea to reread his "Roadsize Picnic", which is in my list now.

    About the book: "The Doomed City was so politically risky that the Strugatsky brothers kept its existence a complete secret even from
    their closest friends for sixteen years after its completion in
    1972. It was only published in Russia during perestroika in the
    late 1980s, the last of their works to see publication. It was
    translated into a host of European languages, and now appears in
    English in a major new effort by acclaimed translator Andrew
    Bromfield."

    You've intrigued me. ;-)

    I have enjoyed the english translations of some books by Dostoevsky
    and Tolstoy. They are great epics of life and consequences.

    May be.

    Bye, August!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2020

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to August Abolins on Thursday, January 02, 2020 12:28:22
    Hi August -- on Jan 02 2020 at 18:10, you wrote:


    But I hear stories from teachers that kids who launch accusations of
    abuse from teachers who in so much as touch them on the shoulder.

    Oh yes, it's absolutely forbidden to touch a student - which is a real
    problem for band teachers who sometimes need to guide fingers to the
    right positions.


    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/NT 1.30+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to August Abolins on Saturday, January 04, 2020 15:24:23
    Hi, August! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

    "The Great Gatsby" was presented me as a paper book. I like
    English paper books very much because I can do my notes on
    pages. When I complete reading I peruse all the notes and
    refresh in memory those words that were new or unclear when
    I read the book. It is a more effective way to learn words.


    I did that when I was reading French novels in university, since I had to buy my own copies anyway.... :-)



    There is not a whole lot of room to write in the margins in
    most books. Your writing style must be very small and neat!


    Uh-huh. My daughter & I have been reading a modern translation of CANTERBURY TALES, borrowed from the public library, where I am reminded of an optometrist who said I no longer have "twenty-year-old eyes". Apparently the student who left his or her notes in the margins did... (chuckle).



    But I have done something similar when certain words and
    phrases impressed me. I kept a separate journal with notes
    for each particular book. Then, I'd revisit my notes and
    try to use those words and phrases in regular conversation
    to either impress or freak people out.


    Another good learning strategy, IMHO. If you make a point of using new material in everyday life you'll remember it better. :-)



    The first book I started doing that with was "Dracula - Bram
    Stoker", many many years ago! I thought the language in there
    was amazing, and fun to trip-up other people with.


    Published in 1897. Yes, I enjoy archaic language too.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to mark lewis on Monday, January 06, 2020 23:46:40
    Hi, Mark! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    I guess "pull to" makes more sense from the door's POV
    than it did from mine at first.

    then you have folks like myself... i use either "push
    to" or "pull to" depending on which side of the door
    the victim will be on when they exit ;)

    "hey, push the door to as you leave" - door opens out

    "pull the door to on your way out" - door opens in


    In any number of other circumstances "pull" would mean your victim is
    applying force toward him/herself. If the verb tells us the direction in which the force is to be applied & the adverb tells us where you'd like the action to stop, you could theoretically use "push" or "pull". I suspect "pull to" may be an idiomatic expression, however... meaning it's an "exception" to the "rules". the usual rules in which casuch cases the rules are different.



    in either case, the goal of closing the door but not all
    the way is accomplished...


    WRT the excerpt Alexander cited, I figure the narrator would probably
    have closed the door all the way. But I can see that if a bus stops to pick up &/or discharge passengers or if a boat is being tied up at the wharf it's usual to allow for a bit of open space between such expen$ive means of transportation & any fixed objects which might potentially damage them. By the
    same reckoning my CANADIAN OXFORD defines "to" as "a nearly closed position" when "pull to" is used in reference to a door... and it sounds to me as if that's the way you use the adverb. Other sources, if they list the phrase, seem divided as to whether or not the action in such cases goes on until the door is firmly shut. As long as your family & friends know what you mean, I guess that's what matters. They can ask you in person if they don't. But we can't ask Mr. Fitzgerald.... :-))




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Thursday, January 09, 2020 23:26:08
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    I think the difficulty here is that "to" may be used
    either as a preposition or, less commonly, as an adverb.


    BTW... I deliberately grouped the words together as an adult native speaker of English might when I said:


    I pulled the door to = I shut the door

    against the rain = to prevent the rain from coming in


    Some folks get hung up
    on the idea
    that traditional grammar
    doesn't work in English,
    although it works in Latin.
    I prefer it because,
    while I find it difficult at times
    to shoehorn my thoughts
    into eight parts of speech,
    my dictionaries & my friends
    from various other countries
    use the same system.



    Well, if "to" was a preposition


    In the average English/English desk dictionary you'll probably find the first umpteen definitions categorized that way. Keep going... [chuckle].



    give me an example when it is a adverb.
    |an


    When it is defined by reputable sources as "toward a contact point" &/or "in the usual or required position" and does *not* begin a prepositional phrase it's an adverb AFAIC. That was my analysis of "I pulled the door to", but I understand it's not easy to track these things down. :-)

    Other examples, not all of which fit the above description quite so neatly but which tell us the direction &/or the timing of some action:


    to and fro = back and forth
    come to = regain consciousness
    heave to (naut.) = bring or be brought to a standstill
    turn to = begin work
    wrong side to = wrong side forward


    I hope this helps.... :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Alexander Koryagin on Sunday, February 16, 2020 18:48:52
    Alexander Koryagin:

    She turned her head as there was a light dignified
    knocking at the front door. I went out and opened it.
    Gatsby, pale as death, with his hands plunged like
    weights in his coat pockets, was standing in a puddle
    of water glaring tragically into my eyes.

    With his hands still in his coat pockets he stalked by
    me into the hall, turned sharply as if he were on a
    wire, and disappeared into the living-room. It wasn't
    a bit funny. Aware of the loud beating of my own heart
    I pulled the door to against the increasing rain.

    It "against" a verb? ;-)

    No, but "to" is not a sign of the infinitive either. It is
    a preposition depending on "pull" and acting upon an implied
    noun (jamb): pull the door snugly to the jamb to shut off
    bad weather.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to August Abolins on Sunday, February 16, 2020 20:39:48
    August Abolins:

    I have to admit, that I don't think I ever finished
    reading the *first* story of RC.

    I found that one in my newly-bought PocketBook Education
    (now sadly discontinued) and enjoyed it tremendously, as
    well as the second Soiviet screen adaptaion:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTTSFar2WDU

    which has been a soul-elevating experiece to me. Our first
    adaptation of Crusoe is an early 3D movie shot for the
    world's first no-goggles stereoscopic movie theater, in
    Moscow:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ4g2Zh162k

    Wuthering Heights (Bronte) has great characters, witty
    conversations, and fun turns of phrase.

    Emily Bronte. On my to-read list.

    I have enjoyed the english translations of some books by
    Dostoevsky and Tolstoy. They are great epics of life and
    consequences.

    Do try the shorter and later works by Tolstoy: Resurrection,
    Kholstomer, and short stories. About "War and Pience" he
    wrote: "I am not going to write such verbose dreck again."
    We also have a very good screen adaptation of Resurrection:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_Ws9aK_S3U
    (fragments)

    -- shot when operators zoomed with their feet rather than
    with variofocus lenses.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Alexander Koryagin on Sunday, February 16, 2020 20:42:28
    Alexander Koryagin:

    I am not a big fan of it, although recently I've had an
    idea to reread his "Roadsize Picnic", which is in my
    list now.

    For the benefit of our English correspondents I will correct
    title: Roadside picnic.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Dallas Hinton on Sunday, February 16, 2020 20:50:16
    Dallas Hinton:

    Oh yes, it's absolutely forbidden to touch a
    student -- which is a real problem for band teachers who
    sometimes need to guide fingers to the right positions.

    That is a tyranny of political correctness. When I was in
    ninth grade, my Russian-language teacher once zipped the
    zipper on my trousers without any hidden motive. The PC
    police would be enraged :-)

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Anton Shepelev on Sunday, February 16, 2020 20:56:18
    Hi, Anton Shepelev! ->Alexander Koryagin
    I read your message from 16.02.2020 19:48

    a bit funny. Aware of the loud beating of my own heart I pulled
    the door to against the increasing rain.
    Is "against" a verb?

    No, but "to" is not a sign of the infinitive either. It is a
    preposition depending on "pull" and acting upon an implied noun
    (jamb): pull the door snugly to the jamb to shut off bad weather.

    I hope I'll read this book to the end. ;)

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2020

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Alexander Koryagin on Sunday, February 16, 2020 21:06:14
    Alexander Koryagin:

    I hope I'll read this book to the end. ;)

    Great Gatsby? If you ask me, you might as well put it down
    and take Huxley's Crome Yellow.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to August Abolins on Sunday, February 16, 2020 21:03:42
    August Abolins to Alexander Koryagin:

    I'm impressed with your likes. Ivanhoe is quite the epic
    and filled with very "formal" yet an ancient way of
    speaking and writing.

    formal *and* ancient, because most of the time formal usage
    is time-honoured usage.

    L-o-n-g sentences!

    But more amenable to parsing than, say, in M.R. James's
    "Jolly corner":

    He took it full in the face that something had happened
    between--that he couldn't have noticed before (by which he
    meant on his original tour of all the rooms that evening)
    that such a barrier had exceptionally presented itself.
    He had indeed since that moment undergone an agitation so
    extraordinary that it might have muddled for him any ear-
    lier view; and he tried to convince himself that he might
    perhaps then have gone into the room and, inadvertently,
    automatically, on coming out, have drawn the door after
    him. The difficulty was that this exactly was what he
    never did; it was against his whole policy, as he might
    have said, the essence of which was to keep vistas clear.
    He had them from the first, as he was well aware, quite on
    the brain: the strange apparition, at the far end of one
    of them, of his baffled "prey" (which had become by so
    sharp an irony so little the term now to apply!) was the
    form of success his imagination had most cherished, pro-
    jecting into it always a refinement of beauty. He had
    known fifty times the start of perception that had after-
    wards dropped; had fifty times gasped to himself.
    "There!" under some fond brief hallucination. The house,
    as the case stood, admirably lent itself; he might wonder
    at the taste, the native architecture of the particular
    time, which could rejoice so in the multiplication of
    doors--the opposite extreme to the modern, the actual
    almost complete proscription of them; but it had fairly
    contributed to provoke this obsession of the presence
    encountered telescopically, as he might say, focused and
    studied in diminishing perspective and as by a rest for
    the elbow.

    This entire paragraph feels to me like a bumpy road
    whereover one (I) can hardly walk wighout he trips all the
    time and falls often, hurting one's knees. I know this
    sentence is dubious, but plead to Edrawd Albee, who wrote
    (IIRC):

    A man can put up with only so much without he descends a
    rung or two down the old evolutionary ladder.

    -- a strange constuction, perhaps colloqual...

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Anton Shepelev on Sunday, February 16, 2020 21:10:18
    Hi, Anton Shepelev! ->Dallas Hinton
    I read your message from 16.02.2020 21:50

    Oh yes, it's absolutely forbidden to touch a student -- which is a
    real problem for band teachers who sometimes need to guide fingers
    to the right positions.

    That is a tyranny of political correctness. When I was in ninth
    grade, my Russian-language teacher once zipped the zipper on my
    trousers without any hidden motive. The PC police would be enraged

    I believe it was a very cranky act. After all a ninth grader is almost a grown up person. Can you imagine such zipping, for instance, in the street? ;-) Any normal man would just say of the problem if he wants to help the unzipped somebody.

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2020

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Alexander Koryagin on Sunday, February 16, 2020 21:11:42
    Alexander Koryagin:

    Well, if "to" was a preposition give me an example when
    it is a adverb.

    It is a matter of terminology. I say "to" is a preposition
    acting upon an implied noun. Someone else can say it is an
    adverb insomuch as it has no explicit noun upon which to
    act.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Alexander Koryagin on Sunday, February 16, 2020 21:16:52
    Alexander Koryagin:

    So in normal language the sentence will look like this:

    "... I closed the door because the rain was increasing."

    It has a different meaning for two reasons: "close" can mean
    more than just pulling to, and there is no indication of
    increasing rain in the original. In that sentence, Gatsby's
    language *is* normal, euphonic, and brief.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/360 to Anton Shepelev on Monday, February 17, 2020 08:15:24
    Hi, Anton Shepelev : Alexander Koryagin!
    I read your message from 16.02.2020 22:16

    So in normal language the sentence will look like this:
    "... I closed the door because the rain was increasing."

    It has a different meaning for two reasons: "close" can mean more
    than just pulling to, and there is no indication of increasing rain
    in the original.

    There is no indication of increasing rain?
    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    Aware of the loud beating of my own heart I
    pulled the door to against the increasing rain.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    In that sentence, Gatsby's language *is* normal,
    euphonic, and brief.

    Why have you removed the citation?

    https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/pull+to
    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    2. To drag, tug, or yank something shut. A noun or pronoun is used between "pull" and "to."
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    IMHO "shut" speaks clearly about the result of the action.

    Bye, Anton!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2020

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Anton Shepelev@2:221/360 to Alexander Koryagin on Monday, February 17, 2020 11:16:12
    Alexander Koryagin to Anton Shepelev:

    "Aware of the loud beating of my own heart I pulled
    the door to against the increasing rain."

    So in normal language the sentence will look like
    this:
    "... I closed the door because the rain was
    increasing."

    It has a different meaning for two reasons: "close" can
    mean more than just pulling to, and there is no
    indication of increasing rain in the original. In
    that sentence, Gatsby's language *is* normal, euphonic,
    and brief.

    There is no indication of increasing rain?
    Why have you removed the citation?

    Because of haste and lazyness :-(

    Observe that it does not matter whether the rain is
    increasing or not insomuch as it is heavy and aslant, so I
    propose to mark that it was increasing in a parenthetical
    expression:

    He shut the door to block rain, which was increasing.

    IMHO "shut" speaks clearly about the result of the
    action.

    I think it may imply locking.

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/360 to Anton Shepelev on Monday, February 17, 2020 19:56:12
    On 2/16/2020 2:03 PM, between "Anton Shepelev : August Abolins":

    But more amenable to parsing than, say, in M.R.
    James's "Jolly corner":

    [snip]

    This entire paragraph feels to me like a bumpy road
    whereover one (I) can hardly walk wighout he trips all the
    time and falls often, hurting one's knees. I know this
    sentence is dubious, but plead to Edrawd Albee, who wrote
    (IIRC):

    I concur. That example was brutal! and hard to remain interested in reading.

    It reminded me of "stream of consciousness" style of writing.


    A man can put up with only so much without he descends a
    rung or two down the old evolutionary ladder.

    That is probably why writers/authors need a good editor/publisher who can suggest improvements.


    --
    Quoted with Reformator/Quoter. Info = https://tinyurl.com/sxnhux

    --- Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228)
    * Origin: nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)