On 5/04/2019 01:47, 1:261/1466 wrote:

Maybe today it might be easier -- there are not as many RCs. Even if
you could get a quorum of RCs to put a revision on the table, it is not clear if you could muster the votes of the NCs.

Maybe a poll of *Cs first to see how many are alive and kicking.

Does a dead *C have any voting rights?

--

Gang warily
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)

Then there was the second
move that I helped get started and was heavily involved in.

So you'd want to be aboard for a retry ?

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.99 SR41
* Origin: Ceci n'est pas un courriel (2:292/854)

Does a dead *C have any voting rights?

Yes.

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.99 SR41
* Origin: Ceci n'est pas un courriel (2:292/854)

On 04-04-19 11:35, Bj”rn Felten <=-
spoke to All about We choose to change the P <=-

We choose to change the Policy4 before its 30th birthday
at 9 June 2019 and do the other things, not because they
are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will
serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and
skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing
to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which
we intend to win, and the others, too.

Well if we could go to the moon, so why not? 8-)

Go for it! :-}} We have had two unsuccessful attempts in my memory.
The first was when you became editor of Fidonews. That one was a simple
one to change the link info in P4 to reflect reality. That change died
quickly without getting any public attention. Then there was the second
move that I helped get started and was heavily involved in. It made the
change in Fidonews editor location, and then also tried to make it
easier to change/amend in the future. That got a lot of attention and
many revisions -- but in the end, it did not get a quorum of RCs to vote
on presenting it to the *Cs for a vote (a majority of those voting said
yes).

Maybe today it might be easier -- there are not as many RCs. Even if
you could get a quorum of RCs to put a revision on the table, it is not
clear if you could muster the votes of the NCs.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 01:53:29, 05 Apr 2019
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

Hello Ward!

05 Apr 19 09:16, you wrote to David Drummond:

Does a dead *C have any voting rights?

Yes.

However, he/she is unlikely to exercise them.

Andrew

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: Phoenix BBS * phoenix.bnbbbs.net (1:320/219)

Andrew,

Does a dead *C have any voting rights?

Yes.

However, he/she is unlikely to exercise them.

You can trust me on thisone ... over the years I've seen a number of unlikely scenarios unfold that left me baffled.

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.99 SR41
* Origin: Ceci n'est pas un courriel (2:292/854)

On 04-05-19 08:50, Ward Dossche <=-
spoke to Dale Shipp about Re: We choose to change <=-

Then there was the second
move that I helped get started and was heavily involved in.

So you'd want to be aboard for a retry ?

Not really. I would be willing to offer historical advice to any group
who is willing to take on that battle, But I'm not willing to spend as
much time and effort as I did before. We tried, and failed. So if it
is to happen, fresh eyes are needed.

Maybe just scrap the idea of amending P4, and writing a P5 that fits the
modern world would be better.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 02:51:01, 06 Apr 2019
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

We tried, and failed.

I beg to differ ... "we tried and did not succeed".

A lot of good people put some honest effort into it.

Maybe just scrap the idea of amending P4, and writing a P5 that fits the modern world would be better.

Technically P4 isn't all bad.

And a P5? ?? Hmmm ... That, in my opinion of course, would be the end of today's Fidonet, the bickering, verbal fighting, mudslinging will know no end.

Ward
--- AfterShock/Android 1.6.8
* Origin: Baby-Glacier (2:292/854.1)

Dale Shipp wrote to Ward Dossche <=-

Maybe just scrap the idea of amending P4, and writing a P5 that fits
the modern world would be better.

Agreed. How much of P4 is irrelevant nowadays, and what issues aren't
covered by P4? Seems like we could come up with a more effective,
easier to approve document.


... Take away the important parts
--- MultiMail/XT v0.51
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

On 04-06-19 13:16, Ward Dossche <=-
spoke to Dale Shipp about Re: We choose to change <=-

We tried, and failed.

I beg to differ ... "we tried and did not succeed".

Same thing in my mind. Failed == did not succeed.

A lot of good people put some honest effort into it.

That is very true. The time and effort by myself and many others is
why I have no interest in trying it again. But if any small group
wishes to try -- best of luck and I hope they succeed this time.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 17:50:47, 07 Apr 2019
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

Hello Dale Shipp!

07 Apr 19 17:48:04, Dale Shipp wrote to Ward Dossche:

We tried, and failed.

I beg to differ ... "we tried and did not succeed".

Same thing in my mind. Failed == did not succeed.

Semantics. The result was that P4 was not changed.

That is very true. The time and effort by myself and many others is
why I have no interest in trying it again.

Same here. I was very disappointed when it failed. No use pointing fingers, but
I am out. I am not going to put any more time and energy in it. I have learned
to live with P4 as it is and have done so for 25+ years. Ik can live with it for what remains of my Fidolife.


Michiel


--- goAtEd-windows/386 1.0.5-154-a1826692
* Origin: (2:280/5555)

Hello Dale,

We tried, and failed.

I beg to differ ... "we tried and did not succeed".

Same thing in my mind. Failed == did not succeed.

Reagan tried in 1976 and failed.
Reagan tried in 1980 and succeeded.

Bush tried in 1980 and failed.
Bush tried in 1988 and succeeded.

A lot of good people put some honest effort into it.

That is very true. The time and effort by myself and many others is
why I have no interest in trying it again. But if any small group
wishes to try -- best of luck and I hope they succeed this time.

Toss it and write a new one.

Or simply write a new one, as what you have was never
legitimately passed and ratified in any zone.

--Lee

--
Your Hole Is Our Goal

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Dale,

That is very true. The time and effort by myself and many others is
why I have no interest in trying it again.

MVDV>> Same here. I was very disappointed when it failed. No use pointing
MVDV>> fingers, but I am out. I am not going to put any more time and
MVDV>> energy in it. I have learned to live with P4 as it is and
MVDV>> have done so for 25+ years. Ik can live with it for what
MVDV>> remains of my Fidolife.

And on this, we are in complete agreement. Both of us (and others) put
a lot of effort into coming up with a meaningful revision. In the end,
we did not even get a quorum of the RCs to vote on it (although a
majority of those voting did agree).

That is why we need to start from scratch.
Out with the old, in with the new ...

--Lee

--
Pork. The One You Love.

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Dale,

Or simply write a new one, as what you have was never
legitimately passed and ratified in any zone.

It was voted on and passed by a majority of the *Cs at the time.

No such vote was ever legitimately introduced or voted on
in any zone. With no vote ever having been taken in any zone,
P4 was never passed and ratified.

What some of the *Cs did was have a vote amongst themselves
at some private party (such as at a pizza joint), then claim
their vote was for everybody in Fidonet.

Which is why no sysop in Fidonet is obligated to recognize
said vote as being valid or legitimate. Regardless of zone.

Therefore, I, Lee Lofaso, have decided that once I have been
recognized as being a sysop in good standing, I shall introduce
a new policy document for Fidonet. We can start in whatever
zone decides to recognize me as a full-fledged sysop.

--Lee

--
Often Licked, Never Beaten

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 04-08-19 11:27, Michiel Van Der Vlist <=-
spoke to Dale Shipp about We choose to change <=-

That is very true. The time and effort by myself and many others is
why I have no interest in trying it again.

MVDV> Same here. I was very disappointed when it failed. No use pointing
MVDV> fingers, but I am out. I am not going to put any more time and
MVDV> energy in it. I have learned to live with P4 as it is and
MVDV> have done so for 25+ years. Ik can live with it for what
MVDV> remains of my Fidolife.

And on this, we are in complete agreement. Both of us (and others) put
a lot of effort into coming up with a meaningful revision. In the end,
we did not even get a quorum of the RCs to vote on it (although a
majority of those voting did agree).

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 01:14:15, 09 Apr 2019
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

On 04-09-19 01:46, Lee Lofaso <=-
spoke to Dale Shipp about We choose to change <=-

Or simply write a new one, as what you have was never
legitimately passed and ratified in any zone.

It was voted on and passed by a majority of the *Cs at the time.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)



... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 01:15:35, 09 Apr 2019
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)