• Muslim Kids

    From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to All on Saturday, May 11, 2019 22:14:17
    Hello Everybody,

    Everybody loves children. Right?
    Especially Muslim children. Right?
    Here are Muslim children.
    All singing the same old song.
    In the City of Brotherly Love - Philadelphia, Pennsylvania USA

    Truly a sight to behold, isn't it?
    Now think of what Muslim children in Iran look like.
    And what Muslim children in Palestine look like.
    And what Muslim children everywhere else look like.

    https://youtu.be/KHXCmEWxMY4

    What should we teach the children to sing next?

    --Lee

    --
    Big Or Small We Lay Them All

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  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to Lee Lofaso on Sunday, May 12, 2019 12:31:18
    On 11 May 2019, Lee Lofaso said the following...

    Hello Everybody,

    Everybody loves children. Right?
    Especially Muslim children. Right?
    Here are Muslim children.
    All singing the same old song.
    In the City of Brotherly Love - Philadelphia, Pennsylvania USA

    Truly a sight to behold, isn't it?

    This facility should be immediately shutdown and demolished.
    Next the so called American-Muslim society should be eliminated.

    Why?
    These two cultures; Christians and Muslims are in serious conflict with one another and have been for hundreds of years. To suggest otherwise is being extremely naive.

    What escaped to the media and to the world of children singing about chopping off heads; is really who they are and it is what they believe.

    They want to be intolerant and have this ideology of which supports this disgusting action and belief?

    Fine... then they will learn what the true meaning of the word means, to be intolerant. There must be NO tolerance to allow this disease to continue to exist within the United States of America.

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  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Gregory Deyss on Monday, May 13, 2019 10:22:07
    On 13/05/2019 02:31, Gregory Deyss -> Lee Lofaso wrote:

    There must be NO tolerance to allow this disease to continue to
    exist within the United States of America.

    Should the KKK and other purist "Christian" filth be not tolerated too?

    --

    Gang warily
    David

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  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to David Drummond on Monday, May 13, 2019 18:51:29
    On 13 May 2019, David Drummond said the following...

    On 13/05/2019 02:31, Gregory Deyss -> Lee Lofaso wrote:

    There must be NO tolerance to allow this disease to continue to
    exist within the United States of America.

    Should the KKK and other purist "Christian" filth be not tolerated too?

    I do not need to be a member the Klan to know that I am right about
    everything that I indicated previously.

    I have no problem with anyone leaving here or even next to me if they want to live here in peace, but the adults that put this together knew what they were doing. Then even posting it on social media... what the hell is wrong with you that you are not repulsed by this. What the hell is wrong with you? indeed...

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  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Gregory Deyss on Tuesday, May 14, 2019 10:31:27
    On 14/05/2019 08:51, Gregory Deyss -> David Drummond wrote:

    There must be NO tolerance to allow this disease to continue to
    exist within the United States of America.

    Should the KKK and other purist "Christian" filth be not tolerated
    too?

    I do not need to be a member the Klan to know that I am right about everything that I indicated previously.

    I have no problem with anyone leaving here or even next to me if they want
    to
    live here in peace, but the adults that put this together knew what they
    were
    doing. Then even posting it on social media... what the hell is wrong with
    you
    that you are not repulsed by this. What the hell is wrong with you? indeed...

    Minor cholesterol and blood pressure issues - other than that nothing is wrong with me.

    You have to appreciate that not everyone has been indoctrinated in the "American Way", some of us see the world a little differently to many USAmericans.

    And I didn't bother to view the video, what madness happens in your country is not my problem.

    --

    Gang warily
    David

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  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to David Drummond on Monday, May 13, 2019 20:30:00
    David Drummond wrote to Gregory Deyss <=-

    And I didn't bother to view the video, what madness happens in
    your country is not my problem.

    And yet you feel the need to (frequently) comment on what happens
    here in this country.

    Mind your own business if it's not your problem.



    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to David Drummond on Monday, May 13, 2019 22:43:04
    You have to appreciate that not everyone has been indoctrinated in the "American Way", some of us see the world a little differently to many USAmericans.

    I would think that living in peace can appeal to everyone everywhere not just Americans.

    And I didn't bother to view the video, what madness happens in your country is not my problem.

    Great then you might want to check this out as it is happening in your own
    back yard.

    https://barenakedislam.com/2011/02/14/australia-rocks-calling-for-a-10-year-ban -on-muslim-immigration/

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  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Gregory Deyss on Wednesday, May 15, 2019 15:49:38
    On 15/05/2019 09:39, Gregory Deyss -> David Drummond wrote:

    I can see the appeal to USAmericans - they have so little peace - if
    what we're told in the news is to be believed.

    Yeah, You got a point there is no way that I watch CNN, or NBC, the news
    is
    not the news any longer and it's nothing more then a production, in other words, It's Fake News.

    I would guess there are proportionately as many narrow minded bigots in
    Australia as there are there.

    That might be so but Australia, is not alone with it's stance when it
    comes
    to Muslims and you may be surprised to learn that I am not talking about the U.S.

    Such a mind set would make them "narrow minded bigots". Not all Muslims are of the zealous head chopping frame of mind, and more than all Christians in USA are of the KKK mindset.

    There are bad eggs in all cultures.

    --

    Gang warily
    David

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  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Gregory Deyss on Wednesday, May 15, 2019 15:50:48
    On 15/05/2019 09:56, Gregory Deyss -> Lee Lofaso wrote:
    Islam means "peace and submission to Allah". Those who refuse
    get what they deserve. According to their holy book.

    but the U.S. is primarily is a Christian Nation.

    The twisted mentality of a small handful of people does not mean
    that all Muslims have the same "off with their heads" mentality.
    Remember, these are small children who have been taught to hate.

    Where there are a few there are thousands, but it's always too late when when they shout Allahu akbar!

    Is that any worse than the US President saying "God is on your side" to the US forces when they were invading Iraq?

    --

    Gang warily
    David

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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Gregory Deyss on Wednesday, May 15, 2019 16:55:49
    Hello Greg,

    Islam means "peace and submission to Allah". Those who refuse
    get what they deserve. According to their holy book.

    but the U.S. is primarily is a Christian Nation.

    The US is a *free* nation.

    The twisted mentality of a small handful of people does not mean
    that all Muslims have the same "off with their heads" mentality.
    Remember, these are small children who have been taught to hate.

    Where there are a few there are thousands, but it's always too late when when they shout Allahu akbar!

    Christians shout "God is Great" every time they go to church.
    Which isn't very often, but still ...

    --Lee

    --
    Stop Workin', Start Jerkin'

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  • From RUBEN FIGUEROA@1:124/5013 to Lee Lofaso on Wednesday, May 15, 2019 10:47:02
    but the U.S. is primarily is a Christian Nation.

    The US is a *free* nation.

    Based on freedom to bear arms. freedom of speech, freedom from religious persecution, etc. Yes primarily the US is composed of Christianity but
    there are many beliefs supported because it is a *free* nation.


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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to David Drummond on Wednesday, May 15, 2019 20:56:04
    Hello David,

    Islam means "peace and submission to Allah". Those who refuse
    get what they deserve. According to their holy book.

    but the U.S. is primarily is a Christian Nation.

    The twisted mentality of a small handful of people does not mean
    that all Muslims have the same "off with their heads" mentality.
    Remember, these are small children who have been taught to hate.

    Where there are a few there are thousands, but it's always too late
    when when they shout Allahu akbar!

    Is that any worse than the US President saying "God is on your side" to
    the
    US forces when they were invading Iraq?

    GWB is a trained pilot, having been taught how to fly by the
    Texas Air National Guard. He hopped on a military jet, flew to
    Iraq, then landed on an aircraft carrier, got out, and announced
    to the entire world -

    "Mission Accomplished!" ~GWB

    --Lee

    --
    I Take A Sheet In The Pool

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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to David Drummond on Wednesday, May 15, 2019 20:56:29
    Hello David,

    I can see the appeal to USAmericans - they have so little peace - if
    what we're told in the news is to be believed.

    Yeah, You got a point there is no way that I watch CNN, or NBC, the
    news is
    not the news any longer and it's nothing more then a production, in
    other
    words, It's Fake News.

    I would guess there are proportionately as many narrow minded bigots
    in
    Australia as there are there.

    That might be so but Australia, is not alone with it's stance when it
    comes
    to Muslims and you may be surprised to learn that I am not talking
    about
    the U.S.

    Such a mind set would make them "narrow minded bigots". Not all Muslims
    are
    of the zealous head chopping frame of mind, and more than all Christians
    in
    USA are of the KKK mindset.

    Christian terrorists exist, and continue doing their thing to this
    very day. If you want to know the definition of what a terrorist is,
    it is defined quite clearly in the US Patriot Act.

    There are bad eggs in all cultures.

    A Christian terrorist shot up a bunch of Republicans who were
    playing a charity baseball game, almost killing one of them.
    The congressman who survived having been shot says he is still
    trying to forgive the guy who who did it.

    A Christian terrorist plowed his car into a crowd in Charlottesville,
    Virginia, injuring dozens of people and killing one woman. The woman's
    mother says it is impossible for her to forgive the guy who did it.

    A Christian terrorist who was white shot a bunch of black folks dead
    inside a church in South Carolina. None of the black folks were given
    a chance to forgive him for his crimes.

    Many Christian terrorists have shot abortion doctors dead ...

    --Lee

    --
    Often Licked, Never Beaten

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  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to DAVID DRUMMOND on Wednesday, May 15, 2019 16:21:24
    On 14/05/2019 11:30, Dan Clough -> David Drummond wrote:

    And I didn't bother to view the video, what madness happens in
    your country is not my problem.

    And yet you feel the need to (frequently) comment on what happens
    here in this country.

    I take my lead from the example shown by the USAmericans.

    Mind your own business if it's not your problem.

    That does not stop me from making an observation. 'Freedom of speech"
    is not
    your exclusive realm.

    Over here, many people - especially those of the leftist persuasion -
    believe in freedom for MY speech and will shout down anyone who tries to express a different opinion. They've been doing that here for well over
    half a century
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  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to GREGORY DEYSS on Wednesday, May 15, 2019 16:28:00
    Islam means "peace and submission to Allah". Those who refuse
    get what they deserve. According to their holy book.

    but the U.S. is primarily is a Christian Nation.

    Actually, it's most American citizens *profess* to believe in Christianity.
    And most of them seldom, if ever, attend religious services
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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to RUBEN FIGUEROA on Thursday, May 16, 2019 02:20:24
    Hello Ruben,

    but the U.S. is primarily is a Christian Nation.

    The US is a *free* nation.

    Based on freedom to bear arms. freedom of speech, freedom from religious persecution, etc. Yes primarily the US is composed of Christianity but there are many beliefs supported because it is a *free* nation.

    Exactly!

    --Lee

    --
    It Ain't Payday If It Ain't Nuts In Your Mouth

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  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to David Drummond on Wednesday, May 15, 2019 20:30:48
    Such a mind set would make them "narrow minded bigots". Not all Muslims are of the zealous head chopping frame of mind, and more than all Christians in USA are of the KKK mindset.

    Every time that I have became aware or learned about someone who had their
    head chopped off it has been by acts of terror by Muslims or someone who
    joined up with the Islamic faith and has become radicalized.

    This just doesnot happen in modern times with folks who fellow
    Christianity to any degree.

    There is nothing wrong with being proud of my Christian Values.

    Thinking the way I do, does not make me a Klansman, a white supremacist or a even a Nazi. The truth the matter is that I am not going to change your mind, even though your backwards and opinionated, you have that right.

    Just know that this has nothing to do with me.

    Sure there are some nut cases out there with guns, does that mean that we outlaw the gun, even I believe in Gun Control - I use both hands.

    If these people who feel so strongly about their religion and their
    connection to allah, and want to kill the non-believers & can not remain peaceful then the United States of America may not the best choice for a destination, I have no plans at any such time, in becoming being submissive
    in my beliefs.

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  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to David Drummond on Wednesday, May 15, 2019 20:36:17
    On 15 May 2019, David Drummond said the following...

    On 15/05/2019 09:56, Gregory Deyss -> Lee Lofaso wrote:
    Islam means "peace and submission to Allah". Those who refuse
    get what they deserve. According to their holy book.

    but the U.S. is primarily is a Christian Nation.

    The twisted mentality of a small handful of people does not mean
    that all Muslims have the same "off with their heads" mentality.
    Remember, these are small children who have been taught to hate.

    Where there are a few there are thousands, but it's always too late w when they shout Allahu akbar!

    Is that any worse than the US President saying "God is on your side" to the US forces when they were invading Iraq?

    The U.S. as well as many other nations went there as a liberation force not
    as a conquering force.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Lee Lofaso on Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:38:33
    On 16/05/2019 04:56, Lee Lofaso -> David Drummond wrote:

    Many Christian terrorists have shot abortion doctors dead ...

    It is very interesting that "pro-life" advocates are prepared to kill for their
    cause...

    --

    Gang warily
    David

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  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to BOB ACKLEY on Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:42:10
    On 16/05/2019 06:21, BOB ACKLEY -> DAVID DRUMMOND wrote:

    Mind your own business if it's not your problem.

    That does not stop me from making an observation. 'Freedom of speech" is not
    your exclusive realm.

    Over here, many people - especially those of the leftist persuasion - believe in freedom for MY speech and will shout down anyone who tries to express a different opinion. They've been doing that here for well over half a century

    Actually, Australians have no "right to free speech", and as I'm only a guest in this country I guess I have even less "rights".

    I agree that many (and not just "leftists") consider freedom of speech to only include THEIR opinions and no-one else may express a contrary opinion.

    I used "narrow minded bigots" in an earlier message - I reference that expression again.

    --

    Gang warily
    David

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  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Gregory Deyss on Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:50:32
    On 16/05/2019 10:30, Gregory Deyss -> David Drummond wrote:

    Such a mind set would make them "narrow minded bigots". Not all Muslims
    are of the zealous head chopping frame of mind, and more than all
    Christians in USA are of the KKK mindset.

    Every time that I have became aware or learned about someone who had their head chopped off it has been by acts of terror by Muslims or someone who joined up with the Islamic faith and has become radicalized.

    And nearly everyone of those "muslim radicals" bombed from umpty thousand feet was bombed by someone who aligns with Christians.

    This just does not happen in modern times with folks who fellow Christianity to any degree.

    Tell that to the dead of those middle eastern countries (and some central American ones).

    There is nothing wrong with being proud of my Christian Values.

    One does not have to suck up to an imaginary deity to have humanist values.


    Thinking the way I do, does not make me a Klansman, a white supremacist or
    a
    even a Nazi. The truth the matter is that I am not going to change your
    mind,
    even though your backwards and opinionated, you have that right.

    Backwards? Do you support the imperialist foreign policies of your nation?

    Just know that this has nothing to do with me.

    And yet you hold and stand by your opinions?

    Sure there are some nut cases out there with guns, does that mean that we outlaw the gun, even I believe in Gun Control - I use both hands.

    I do not now, nor ever have had the desire to possess a gun. I do not hunt for food so cannot perceive a need.

    If these people who feel so strongly about their religion and their connection to allah, and want to kill the non-believers & can not remain peaceful then the United States of America may not the best choice for a destination, I have no plans at any such time, in becoming being
    submissive
    in my beliefs.

    And yet you submit to your belief...

    --

    Gang warily
    David

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  • From Dale Shipp@1:261/1466 to Gregory Deyss on Thursday, May 16, 2019 01:06:04
    On 05-15-19 20:30, Gregory Deyss <=-
    spoke to David Drummond about Re: Muslim Kids <=-

    Every time that I have became aware or learned about someone who had
    their head chopped off it has been by acts of terror by Muslims or
    someone who joined up with the Islamic faith and has become
    radicalized.

    This just doesnot happen in modern times with folks
    who fellow Christianity to any degree.

    Perhaps not -- instead they got hung from the nearest tree.

    There is nothing wrong with being proud of my
    Christian Values.

    Certainly not -- assuming that you practice them, according to the
    teachings of Jesus. But much of what is happening in society today is definitely not according to Christian teachings.

    Thinking the way I do, does not make me a Klansman, a white
    supremacist or a even a Nazi.

    Nor does it make the billions of Muslims into Jhadist revolutionaries.
    Both are fringe splinter groups of the whole.

    Dale Shipp
    fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
    (1:261/1466)


    ... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 01:11:44, 16 May 2019
    ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Gregory Deyss on Thursday, May 16, 2019 15:35:30
    This just doesnot happen in modern times with folks who fellow Christianity to any degree.

    It seems to me that the fire-and-brimstone style of Christian preaching is still going strong, especially in the former slave states of the USA.

    This is for instance how the Westboro Baptist Church, Topeka, Kansas showed their Christian love for some of those who died in the 2004 Tsunami in south-east Asia. Is that modern enough times for you?

    http://eljaco.se/WBC_tsunami.png



    ..

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  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to Dale Shipp on Thursday, May 16, 2019 18:08:29
    On 16 May 2019, Dale Shipp said the following...

    On 05-15-19 20:30, Gregory Deyss <=-
    spoke to David Drummond about Re: Muslim Kids <=-

    Every time that I have became aware or learned about someone who had their head chopped off it has been by acts of terror by Muslims or someone who joined up with the Islamic faith and has become radicalized.

    This just doesnot happen in modern times with folks
    who fellow Christianity to any degree.

    Perhaps not -- instead they got hung from the nearest tree.

    There is nothing wrong with being proud of my
    Christian Values.

    Certainly not -- assuming that you practice them, according to the teachings of Jesus. But much of what is happening in society today is definitely not according to Christian teachings.

    Thinking the way I do, does not make me a Klansman, a white supremacist or a even a Nazi.

    Nor does it make the billions of Muslims into Jhadist revolutionaries. Both are fringe splinter groups of the whole.

    At least I can say the Good Book, that is the Holy Bible, does not call for
    the killing of the the non-believers.

    You can say that they are peaceful and benevolent all you want, but the
    Quran the go to book that is at the focal point of the ideology is everything but peaceful and benevolent.

    In fact...
    The Quran contains at least 109 verses that speak of war with nonbelievers, usually on the basis of their status as non-Muslims. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they
    may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

    Nor do our people become radicalized and commit heinous crimes in the name of Christ.

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  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to Björn Felten on Thursday, May 16, 2019 18:17:41
    On 16 May 2019, Bjrn Felten said the following...

    This just doesnot happen in modern times with folks who fellow Christianity to any degree.

    preaching is still going strong, especially in the former slave states
    of the USA.

    You do see where I am located? right? Upstate New York...

    These former sins & bloodstains are on the Democratic Party, not mine.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/64)
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  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Gregory Deyss on Friday, May 17, 2019 10:45:33
    On 16/05/2019 10:36, Gregory Deyss -> David Drummond wrote:

    Is that any worse than the US President saying "God is on your side" to
    the US forces when they were invading Iraq?

    The U.S. as well as many other nations went there as a liberation force
    not
    as a conquering force.

    You keep telling yourself that.

    All the Iraqis were liberated from was their oil and sovereignty.

    --

    Gang warily
    David

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  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Gregory Deyss on Friday, May 17, 2019 10:48:46
    On 17/05/2019 08:08, Gregory Deyss -> Dale Shipp wrote:

    Both are fringe splinter groups of the whole.

    At least I can say the Good Book, that is the Holy Bible, does not call
    for
    the killing of the the non-believers.

    You can say that they are peaceful and benevolent all you want, but the Quran the go to book that is at the focal point of the ideology is
    everything
    but peaceful and benevolent.

    Can you quote the chapter and verse of the Koran that says that?


    In fact... The Quran contains at least 109 verses that speak of war with
    nonbelievers,
    usually on the basis of their status as non-Muslims. Some are quite
    graphic,
    with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever
    they
    may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites'
    and
    warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the
    slaughter.

    Nor do our people become radicalized and commit heinous crimes in the
    name of Christ.

    Bullshit!


    --

    Gang warily
    David

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  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to David Drummond on Friday, May 17, 2019 10:53:32
    On 17/05/2019 10:48, David Drummond -> Gregory Deyss wrote:

    warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the
    slaughter.

    Nor do our people become radicalized and commit heinous crimes in the
    name of Christ.

    Luke 19:27

    2 Chronicles 15:12-13

    And so on...

    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to David Drummond on Thursday, May 16, 2019 23:31:24
    On 2019 May 17 10:48:46, you wrote to Gregory Deyss:

    Nor do our people become radicalized and commit heinous crimes in the
    name of Christ.

    Bullshit!

    obviously he hasn't read his bible completely and doesn't remember his history,
    eh?

    something something crusades something something knights templar something something something

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Cooking tip: Wrap leftover turkey in aluminum foil and throw it out.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Friday, May 17, 2019 06:15:12
    something something crusades something something knights templar
    something something something

    ROTFL!

    Yeah, something like that...



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Dale Shipp@1:261/1466 to Gregory Deyss on Friday, May 17, 2019 01:29:00
    On 05-16-19 18:08, Gregory Deyss <=-
    spoke to Dale Shipp about Re: Muslim Kids <=-

    At least I can say the Good Book, that is the Holy Bible, does not
    call for the killing of the the non-believers.

    And yet for centuries, people have killed in support of the bible.
    They were and are wrong in doing so.

    You can say that they are peaceful and benevolent all you want, but
    the Quran the go to book that is at the focal point of the ideology is everything but peaceful and benevolent.

    In fact...
    The Quran contains at least 109 verses that speak of war with nonbelievers, usually on the basis of their status as non-Muslims. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

    Which verses are those? Have you read them for yourself, or are you
    quoting what you have been told?

    Nor do our people become radicalized and commit heinous crimes in the
    name of Christ.

    Really -- what about those who kill abortion doctors in the name of
    Christ? Or those who shoot up or bomb gay bars because it offends their
    sense of religion? Or those who do the same to mosque? You have to
    admit that such people have become radicalized and are committing
    heinous crimes in the name of their sense of religious values.

    Dale Shipp
    fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
    (1:261/1466)


    ... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 01:36:54, 17 May 2019
    ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

    --- Maximus/NT 3.01
    * Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to GREGORY DEYSS on Saturday, May 18, 2019 10:26:38
    On 15 May 2019, David Drummond said the following...

    On 15/05/2019 09:56, Gregory Deyss -> Lee Lofaso wrote:
    Islam means "peace and submission to Allah". Those who refuse
    get what they deserve. According to their holy book.

    but the U.S. is primarily is a Christian Nation.

    The twisted mentality of a small handful of people does not mean
    that all Muslims have the same "off with their heads" mentality.
    Remember, these are small children who have been taught to hate.

    Where there are a few there are thousands, but it's always
    too late w
    when they shout Allahu akbar!

    Is that any worse than the US President saying "God is on your
    side" to
    the US forces when they were invading Iraq?

    The U.S. as well as many other nations went there as a liberation force not as a conquering force.

    That's the government's line. But it was a conquering force nonetheless,
    and it's an occupying force today - just as the US troops in Europe and
    Japan are occupying forces left over from World War II
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to DAVID DRUMMOND on Saturday, May 18, 2019 10:28:42
    On 16/05/2019 04:56, Lee Lofaso -> David Drummond wrote:

    Many Christian terrorists have shot abortion doctors dead ...

    It is very interesting that "pro-life" advocates are prepared to kill
    for their
    cause...

    About 20 years ago a fanatic Christian shot a physician to death in a
    church, where the doctor was attending worship services. The doctor did perform occasional abortions, but he also safely delivered dozens if not hundreds of babies - a fact which obviously didn't count for his killer
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to BJƒRN FELTEN on Saturday, May 18, 2019 10:30:56
    This just doesnot happen in modern times with folks who fellow Christianity to any degree.

    It seems to me that the fire-and-brimstone style of Christian
    preaching is
    still going strong, especially in the former slave states of the USA.

    This is for instance how the Westboro Baptist Church, Topeka, Kansas
    showed
    their Christian love for some of those who died in the 2004 Tsunami in south-east Asia. Is that modern enough times for you?

    http://eljaco.se/WBC_tsunami.png

    Those idiots also demonstrate at funerals of dead US servicemen and women. There is no 'spirit of Christian love' in that outfit
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to GREGORY DEYSS on Saturday, May 18, 2019 10:33:46
    On 16 May 2019, Dale Shipp said the following...

    At least I can say the Good Book, that is the Holy Bible, does not call for the killing of the the non-believers.

    In the state of Missouri there was a law that required citizens of the
    state to kill any Mormons they happened to come upon. If I remember
    correctly that law was on the books until the 1970s.
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to David Drummond on Saturday, May 18, 2019 20:31:20
    I do not now, nor ever have had the desire to possess a gun. I do not
    hunt for food so cannot perceive a need.

    I do not kill animals for food either. Nor do I support it, when I go shopping for groceries.

    If these people who feel so strongly about their religion and their connection to allah, and want to kill the non-believers & can not rem peaceful then the United States of America may not the best choice fo destination, I have no plans at any such time, in becoming being
    in my beliefs.

    And yet you submit to your belief...

    Believing in something enough to fight and die for it, is worth fighting for. This is not a indigenous belief to Americans, far from it.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)
  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to David Drummond on Saturday, May 18, 2019 20:55:47
    All the Iraqis were liberated from was their oil and sovereignty.

    The U.S. produces more oil then anywhere in the middle east.

    The world would like very different today if it would not America and her allies because France was liberated.
    but...
    Let's say we stayed out of it, just let the Europeans have it.

    Germany would of grown to a more massive size and would have encompassed most of Europe today. Adolf Hitler's grand plans for the 'supercapital' of the
    Third Reich, which he intended to rename Germania, are detailed in a new exhibition.

    Staged in a vast Nazi bunker, 'The Myth of Germania: Vision and Crimes' features the 'Hall of the People' which was to be twice the size of St
    Peter's Basilica in Rome with room for 180,000 people.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to David Drummond on Saturday, May 18, 2019 22:12:00
    Re: Muslim Kids
    By: David Drummond to Gregory Deyss on Thu May 16 2019 10:50 am

    Sure there are some nut cases out there with guns, does that mean that we outlaw the gun, even I believe in Gun Control - I use both hands.

    I do not now, nor ever have had the desire to possess a gun. I do not hunt for food so cannot perceive a need.

    There are other uses for guns. Here are a couple:

    1. Sport/target shooting. Challenging and fun.

    2. Home/personal defense. Here's a scenario for you - you're home asleep at 3:00AM, and are awoken by a noise. Turns out it's a couple of thugs breaking into your house to steal your property and/or rape/kill your wife and teenage daughter. They're crazed out on drugs and have no fear, and either have guns or some other weapon of deadly force like a club or knife. They come at you with clear intentions to kill you. What are you gonna do? Call the police? Yell and scream for help? What will either of those actions get you? That's right...... dead.
    For someone (like me) who has a loaded pistol in my nightstand, the outcome will likely be two dead thugs, and my family and property safe.

    How can any sane person argue that that is not a valid need/use for a gun? Are you willing to give up your life, or your family's lives, because you don't "feel a need" to have a gun?
    --- SBBSecho 3.07-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Gregory Deyss on Sunday, May 19, 2019 14:12:38
    On 19/05/2019 10:31, Gregory Deyss -> David Drummond wrote:

    And yet you submit to your belief...

    Believing in something enough to fight and die for it, is worth fighting
    for.

    I would need to know what I was fighting for, not just accept some proposition with no evidence what so ever.

    This is not a indigenous belief to Americans, far from it.

    True, USA does not have the monopoly on religious nutters but it sure does have
    more than its equal share.

    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Gregory Deyss on Sunday, May 19, 2019 14:16:30
    On 19/05/2019 10:55, Gregory Deyss -> David Drummond wrote:
    All the Iraqis were liberated from was their oil and sovereignty.

    The U.S. produces more oil then anywhere in the middle east.

    The why do they need to steal Iraq'a, Venezuela's etc?

    The world would like very different today if it would not America and her allies because France was liberated. but...
    Let's say we stayed out of it, just let the Europeans have it.

    Exactly what does this term "liberated" mean to you? From the way you use it it
    appears to differ from what I understand.

    Germany would of grown to a more massive size and would have encompassed
    most
    of Europe today. Adolf Hitler's grand plans for the 'supercapital' of the Third Reich, which he intended to rename Germania, are detailed in a new exhibition.

    USA did NOT bring down Hitler's Germany.

    Staged in a vast Nazi bunker, 'The Myth of Germania: Vision and Crimes' features the 'Hall of the People' which was to be twice the size of St Peter's Basilica in Rome with room for 180,000 people.

    As opposed to the uberlords of USA's plan for the world and its people? The USAmericans even seem to think they are "the chosen people" living in "the greatest nation on earth".

    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Dan Clough on Sunday, May 19, 2019 14:29:49
    On 19/05/2019 13:12, Dan Clough -> David Drummond wrote:

    I do not now, nor ever have had the desire to possess a gun. I do not hunt
    for food so cannot perceive a need.

    There are other uses for guns. Here are a couple:

    1. Sport/target shooting. Challenging and fun.

    Shooting at innocent chunks of clay hurled into the air is challenging and fun?
    How about you are the chunks of clay and see how challenging and fun that it.

    2. Home/personal defense. Here's a scenario for you - you're home asleep
    at
    3:00AM, and are awoken by a noise. Turns out it's a couple of thugs
    breaking
    into your house to steal your property and/or rape/kill your wife and
    teenage
    daughter. They're crazed out on drugs and have no fear, and either have
    guns
    or some other weapon of deadly force like a club or knife. They come at
    you
    with clear intentions to kill you. What are you gonna do? Call the
    police?
    Yell and scream for help? What will either of those actions get you? That's right...... dead.

    Oh - a hypothetical situation. I would cast my magic spell and send them to the
    nearest police station.


    The likelihood of your above scenario is so slim as to not warrant mention. Remember - I DO NOT live in USA. Life is not ruled by firearms here.

    For someone (like me) who has a loaded pistol in my nightstand, the
    outcome
    will likely be two dead thugs, and my family and property safe.

    You live in fear of being attacked by armed intruders?

    How can any sane person argue that that is not a valid need/use for a
    gun? Are you willing to give up your life, or your family's lives,
    because you don't
    "feel a need" to have a gun?

    I see the risk of that happening as so slim that I can honestly say "I do not feel the need to possess a firearm to defend myself from armed attackers".

    It would appear that a very large percentage of Australian residents see it the
    same way.

    Wikipedia tells us:

    Estimated number of civilian guns per capita by country:

    1 United States 120.5
    [..]
    51 Australia 14.5

    I can see why you're so terrified. Have you thought of migrating to Australia... or maybe

    162 Netherlands 2.6

    or the home of Borat perhaps:

    217 Uzbekistan 0.4

    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Dan Clough on Sunday, May 19, 2019 15:21:03
    Hi! Dan,

    On 18 May 19 22:12, you wrote to David Drummond:

    There are other uses for guns. Here are a couple:
    1. Sport/target shooting. Challenging and fun.

    Yes, and more expensive these days.

    2. Home/personal defense.

    Not a valid reason for a firearms licence in Australia. Mention that at a Police interview and it's an instant fail, practically forever. No shit, as in
    a previous life I was part of the licensing process.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... It's really quite simple: Their=not ours; There=a place; They're=they are. --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to David Drummond on Sunday, May 19, 2019 10:17:54
    I would need to know what I was fighting for, not just accept some proposition with no evidence what so ever.

    Being overly cynical.. Questioning nearly everything and finding fault and
    even twisting meanings to fit your negative analogies.

    True, USA does not have the monopoly on religious nutters but it sure
    does have more than its equal share.

    I would not consider myself to be a religious nutter, I enjoy life and take pride in my countries achievements and accomplishments, as well as my own.

    I am from the cast of a different measure, I find light from what others view as darkness.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Paul Quinn on Sunday, May 19, 2019 09:04:00
    Paul Quinn wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    There are other uses for guns. Here are a couple:
    1. Sport/target shooting. Challenging and fun.

    Yes, and more expensive these days.

    Well, yes, like everything else. It's manageable, and the cost
    really wasn't the point.

    2. Home/personal defense.

    Not a valid reason for a firearms licence in Australia.

    I see. Thankfully we don't need a license to own/possess a gun
    here in the USA. Our Constitution guarantees us the absolute
    RIGHT to do so.

    Mention that at a Police interview and it's an instant fail,
    practically forever. No shit, as in a previous life I was
    part of the licensing process.

    We don't have police interviews here, unless you've already been
    arrested... :)


    ... If it walks out of your refrigerator, let it go.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.07-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to David Drummond on Sunday, May 19, 2019 09:09:00
    David Drummond wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    I do not now, nor ever have had the desire to possess a gun. I do not hunt
    for food so cannot perceive a need.

    There are other uses for guns. Here are a couple:

    1. Sport/target shooting. Challenging and fun.

    Shooting at innocent chunks of clay hurled into the air is
    challenging and fun? How about you are the chunks of clay and see
    how challenging and fun that it.

    Yes, it's challenging and fun, as I already said. You really are
    an idiot.

    2. Home/personal defense. Here's a scenario for you - you're home asleep
    at
    3:00AM, and are awoken by a noise. Turns out it's a couple of thugs
    breaking
    into your house to steal your property and/or rape/kill your wife and
    teenage
    daughter. They're crazed out on drugs and have no fear, and either have
    guns
    or some other weapon of deadly force like a club or knife. They come at
    you
    with clear intentions to kill you. What are you gonna do? Call the
    police?
    Yell and scream for help? What will either of those actions get you? That's right...... dead.

    Oh - a hypothetical situation. I would cast my magic spell and
    send them to the nearest police station.

    See above regarding "idiot".

    The likelihood of your above scenario is so slim as to not
    warrant mention. Remember - I DO NOT live in USA. Life is not
    ruled by firearms here.

    Life is not ruled by firearms here, either.

    For someone (like me) who has a loaded pistol in my nightstand, the
    outcome
    will likely be two dead thugs, and my family and property safe.

    You live in fear of being attacked by armed intruders?

    No, absolutely not. But it's nice to know that I'm not at their
    mercy if something does happen.

    How can any sane person argue that that is not a valid need/use for a
    gun? Are you willing to give up your life, or your family's lives,
    because you don't
    "feel a need" to have a gun?

    I see the risk of that happening as so slim that I can honestly
    say "I do not feel the need to possess a firearm to defend myself
    from armed attackers".

    I guess you don't value your family's lives as much as I do.
    <shrug>

    It would appear that a very large percentage of Australian
    residents see it the same way.

    Wikipedia tells us:

    Estimated number of civilian guns per capita by country:

    1 United States 120.5
    [..]
    51 Australia 14.5

    ...<YAWN>...

    I can see why you're so terrified. Have you thought of migrating
    to Australia... or maybe

    Not terrified at all. Prepared.

    I've visited Australia several times. Nice but not where I'd want
    to live.


    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.07-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Dan Clough on Monday, May 20, 2019 07:31:27
    On 20/05/2019 00:04, Dan Clough -> Paul Quinn wrote:

    Mention that at a Police interview and it's an instant fail,
    practically forever. No shit, as in a previous life I was
    part of the licensing process.

    We don't have police interviews here, unless you've already been arrested... :)

    And that is why we do not need a firearm to feel safe here. Less arms out in the wild leads less nutters having them.


    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Dan Clough on Monday, May 20, 2019 07:37:49
    On 20/05/2019 00:09, Dan Clough -> David Drummond wrote:

    1. Sport/target shooting. Challenging and fun.

    Shooting at innocent chunks of clay hurled into the air is
    challenging and fun? How about you are the chunks of clay and see
    how challenging and fun that it.

    Yes, it's challenging and fun, as I already said. You really are
    an idiot.

    So if one doesn't see any sense in shooting at clay targets one is an idiot? Must be USAmerican logic....

    2. Home/personal defense. Here's a scenario for you - you're home asleep
    at
    3:00AM, and are awoken by a noise. Turns out it's a couple of thugs breaking
    into your house to steal your property and/or rape/kill your wife and teenage
    daughter. They're crazed out on drugs and have no fear, and either have guns
    or some other weapon of deadly force like a club or knife. They come at you
    with clear intentions to kill you. What are you gonna do? Call the police?
    Yell and scream for help? What will either of those actions get you?
    That's right...... dead.

    Oh - a hypothetical situation. I would cast my magic spell and
    send them to the nearest police station.

    See above regarding "idiot".

    At least I'm not a terrified idiot. Terrified of my neighbours because they all
    have guns and a killer mentality.

    The likelihood of your above scenario is so slim as to not
    warrant mention. Remember - I DO NOT live in USA. Life is not
    ruled by firearms here.

    Life is not ruled by firearms here, either.

    And yet you HAVE to have one to feel safe? Sounds like they have a fair influence on your lifestyle.

    For someone (like me) who has a loaded pistol in my nightstand, the outcome
    will likely be two dead thugs, and my family and property safe.

    You live in fear of being attacked by armed intruders?

    No, absolutely not. But it's nice to know that I'm not at their
    mercy if something does happen.

    What steps have you taken for when an airliner crashes into your roof?

    How can any sane person argue that that is not a valid need/use for a
    gun? Are you willing to give up your life, or your family's lives,
    because you don't "feel a need" to have a gun?

    I see the risk of that happening as so slim that I can honestly
    say "I do not feel the need to possess a firearm to defend myself
    from armed attackers".

    I guess you don't value your family's lives as much as I do.
    <shrug>

    We don't live in fear of such a thing happening.

    It would appear that a very large percentage of Australian
    residents see it the same way.

    Wikipedia tells us:

    Estimated number of civilian guns per capita by country:

    1 United States 120.5
    [..]
    51 Australia 14.5

    ..<YAWN>...

    I can see why you're so terrified. Have you thought of migrating
    to Australia... or maybe

    Not terrified at all. Prepared.

    Yes - you MUST have a firearm by the bed to feel safe at night.....

    I've visited Australia several times. Nice but not where I'd want
    to live.

    No I can see you wouldn't cope with the freedom from fear of being shot in the night. Some people need that sort of adrenaline rush to exist.

    .. Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.

    ROFL - I feel the same about your firearm culture.

    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Gregory Deyss on Monday, May 20, 2019 07:40:47
    On 20/05/2019 00:17, Gregory Deyss -> David Drummond wrote:
    I would need to know what I was fighting for, not just accept some
    proposition with no evidence what so ever.

    Being overly cynical.. Questioning nearly everything and finding fault and even twisting meanings to fit your negative analogies.

    The other option is complete gullibility where I just "believe" any bullshit the uberlords feed me?

    True, USA does not have the monopoly on religious nutters but it sure
    does have more than its equal share.

    I would not consider myself to be a religious nutter, I enjoy life and
    take
    pride in my countries achievements and accomplishments, as well as my own.

    What does belief in imaginary deities have to do with USA's accomplishments?

    I am from the cast of a different measure, I find light from what others
    view
    as darkness.

    Yin and yang.

    Without the negative a battery would not work.

    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384.125 to Dan Clough on Monday, May 20, 2019 09:02:41
    Hi! Dan,

    On 05/20/2019 12:04 AM, Dan Clough -> Paul Quinnyou wrote:

    2. Home/personal defense.
    Not a valid reason for a firearms licence in Australia.

    I see. Thankfully we don't need a license to own/possess a gun
    here in the USA. Our Constitution guarantees us the absolute
    RIGHT to do so.

    Yes, and I understand why. Shooter licensing is a good thing, BTW. Excessive government legislation, administration and fee scheduling is not.

    I hope you're a NRA member, If not, join today.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: Confucius say, Sh*t happens. (3:640/1384.125)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Paul Quinn on Sunday, May 19, 2019 18:39:48
    Re: Muslim Kids
    By: Paul Quinn to Dan Clough on Mon May 20 2019 09:02 am

    2. Home/personal defense.

    Not a valid reason for a firearms licence in Australia.

    I see. Thankfully we don't need a license to own/possess a gun
    here in the USA. Our Constitution guarantees us the absolute
    RIGHT to do so.

    Yes, and I understand why. Shooter licensing is a good thing, BTW. Excessive government legislation, administration and fee scheduling is not.

    I'm a little confused by this, possibly it's a naming/semantics thing... We do require a license (renewable each year) for various hunting seasons. I'm all for that. But "licensing" as required to own a firearm is not something I like or agree with.

    I hope you're a NRA member, If not, join today.

    I am, and have been for a long time.
    --- SBBSecho 3.07-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to PAUL QUINN on Monday, May 20, 2019 16:50:14
    Hi! Dan,

    On 05/20/2019 12:04 AM, Dan Clough -> Paul Quinnyou wrote:

    2. Home/personal defense.
    Not a valid reason for a firearms licence in Australia.

    I see. Thankfully we don't need a license to own/possess a gun
    here in the USA. Our Constitution guarantees us the absolute
    RIGHT to do so.

    Yes, and I understand why. Shooter licensing is a good thing, BTW.
    Excessive
    government legislation, administration and fee scheduling is not.

    I hope you're a NRA member, If not, join today.

    No, because it gives the government a handy list of people to "pick up"
    when it wants to
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to David Drummond on Tuesday, May 21, 2019 01:53:14
    Hello David,

    And yet you submit to your belief...

    Believing in something enough to fight and die for it, is worth
    fighting for.

    I would need to know what I was fighting for, not just accept some proposition with no evidence what so ever.

    Peope do not need to know what they are fighting for.
    Nor do people have to accept some proposition with no evidence
    in order to fight.

    A soldier is a trained killer. The only reason a soldier needs
    is his commanding officer giving him the order. IOW, following
    orders is his gig. He does as he is told. Without question.

    This is not a indigenous belief to Americans, far from it.

    True, USA does not have the monopoly on religious nutters but it sure does have more than its equal share.

    Israel is a theocratic state, whose adherents are Jewish.
    Iran is a theocratic state, whose adherents are Muslim.
    Vatican City is a theocratic state, whose adherents are Christian.

    None of these theocratic states have a monopoly on religions nutters.
    Even though each of them has a monopoly on religious matters.

    As you can plainly see, the USA is not a theocratic state.
    But that can change. All the USA needs is Mike Pence as president.

    Trust me when I tell you, Mike Pence will make you pray.
    Not only you, but the entire world.

    --Lee

    --
    Stop Workin', Start Jerkin'

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to David Drummond on Tuesday, May 21, 2019 01:53:20
    Hello David,

    There are other uses for guns. Here are a couple:

    1. Sport/target shooting. Challenging and fun.

    Shooting at innocent chunks of clay hurled into the air is challenging and fun? How about you are the chunks of clay and see how challenging and fun that it.

    Be careful. I once dated a gal who lived nearby who loved shooting
    those "innocent chunks of clay hurled into the air." She was so good
    at it she could shoot the balls off a guy from a mile away. Actually
    won Olympic gold (shooting at chunks of clay). I reckon I should
    consider myself lucky she never turned hostile ...

    --Lee

    --
    Erections, That's Our Game

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to ERNIE on Wednesday, May 22, 2019 16:52:08
    On 18 May 2019, Dan Clough said the following...

    Re: Muslim Kids
    By: David Drummond to Gregory Deyss on Thu May 16 2019 10:50 am
    For someone (like me) who has a loaded pistol in my nightstand, the outcome will likely be two dead thugs, and my family and property
    safe.

    Hi Dan, I have a question. I have no issues with your reasoning. I fully understand you wanting/needing to protect your family/etc. (and even the sporting aspect.)

    I'm curious as to why this scenario always ends up with 'dead thugs' or
    some such.

    Why isn't the goal ever to incapacitate the 'thugs' to ensure they go
    through
    the system, receive punishment for their crimes and suffer in prison?

    What if one of the thugs you "incapacitated" has a weapon and shoots you?

    (Hell,
    depending on what they've done, I'm OK with them living their life in solitary so they never get to interact with another human again.)

    Is murdering an individual because they entered your house really justification for murder?

    Self defense is not murder.

    (Do I really have the right to decide whether someone else's life has
    no value
    and can terminate it without going through the judicial process?)

    It depends on the circumstances.

    (I do understand that there may be situations where you injure them and
    they
    continue to attempt to attack, which very well may be justification.)
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to ERNIE on Wednesday, May 22, 2019 16:53:36
    On 19 May 2019, David Drummond said the following...
    On 19/05/2019 13:12, Dan Clough -> David Drummond wrote:
    1. Sport/target shooting. Challenging and fun.

    Shooting at innocent chunks of clay hurled into the air is challenging and fun? How about you are the chunks of clay and see how challenging and fun that it.

    OK, let me start with I'm for gun control. (No one really needs an AR-15 unless you're in a war trying to kill lots of people.)

    You don't get to decide what anybody else needs, you can decide what YOU
    need, though.

    Your argument though, is a little silly and not going to change views
    closer
    to yours. :)

    NOTHING will change the views of the anti-gunners.
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to DAN CLOUGH on Wednesday, May 22, 2019 16:57:18
    ernie wrote to David Drummond <=-

    > DC> 1. Sport/target shooting. Challenging and fun.

    Shooting at innocent chunks of clay hurled into the air is challenging and fun? How about you are the chunks of clay and see how challenging and fun that it.

    OK, let me start with I'm for gun control.

    Why? Has it been proven to work? Like in Chicago?

    (No one really needs an AR-15 unless you're in a war trying to
    kill lots of people.)

    Well, that's your opinion, anyway. Pretty hard to define "need"
    sometimes. Quite easy to define a Constitutional right, though.

    By the way, AR-15's are not used in war. By anybody.

    Ah, but they were. I carried one (but didn't fire it) when I was at Da
    Nang in 1965
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to BOB ACKLEY on Wednesday, May 22, 2019 16:37:00
    BOB ACKLEY wrote to DAN CLOUGH <=-

    (No one really needs an AR-15 unless you're in a war trying to
    kill lots of people.)

    Well, that's your opinion, anyway. Pretty hard to define "need"
    sometimes. Quite easy to define a Constitutional right, though.

    By the way, AR-15's are not used in war. By anybody.

    Ah, but they were. I carried one (but didn't fire it) when I was
    at Da Nang in 1965

    No, you didn't. Your memory is getting fuzzy.

    You carried either an M-14 or an M-16.

    An AR-15 is *NOT* a military weapon, and never has been. It also
    is *NOT* the same thing as an M14/M16. I would hope that you know
    the differences, and I'm wondering why you apparently do not.


    ... A woman drove me to drink, and I never had the courtesy to thank her.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.07-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to BOB ACKLEY on Thursday, May 23, 2019 08:45:04
    On 23/05/2019 06:53, BOB ACKLEY -> ERNIE wrote:

    OK, let me start with I'm for gun control. (No one really needs an AR-15
    unless you're in a war trying to kill lots of people.)

    You don't get to decide what anybody else needs, you can decide what YOU need, though.

    Yet he/whomever DOES get to decide if a woman "needs" an abortion or not?

    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to DAN CLOUGH on Saturday, May 25, 2019 11:12:10
    BOB ACKLEY wrote to DAN CLOUGH <=-

    (No one really needs an AR-15 unless you're in a war trying to
    kill lots of people.)

    Well, that's your opinion, anyway. Pretty hard to define "need" sometimes. Quite easy to define a Constitutional right, though.

    By the way, AR-15's are not used in war. By anybody.

    Ah, but they were. I carried one (but didn't fire it) when I was
    at Da Nang in 1965

    No, you didn't. Your memory is getting fuzzy.

    You carried either an M-14 or an M-16.

    I was in the Air Force, Dan, and I carried an AR-15. I don't think the
    M-14 or M-16 was in the Army's inventory in 1965, although I'm sure they
    were being tested.

    An AR-15 is *NOT* a military weapon, and never has been. It also
    is *NOT* the same thing as an M14/M16. I would hope that you know
    the differences, and I'm wondering why you apparently do not.

    I don't know the differences, as far as I know I've never seen an M-16 or
    an M-14
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to DAVID DRUMMOND on Saturday, May 25, 2019 11:19:38
    On 23/05/2019 06:53, BOB ACKLEY -> ERNIE wrote:

    OK, let me start with I'm for gun control. (No one really needs an
    AR-15
    unless you're in a war trying to kill lots of people.)

    You don't get to decide what anybody else needs, you can decide
    what YOU
    need, though.

    Yet he/whomever DOES get to decide if a woman "needs" an abortion or not?

    No he doesn't, SHE does
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to BOB ACKLEY on Monday, May 27, 2019 11:10:13
    On 26/05/2019 01:19, BOB ACKLEY -> DAVID DRUMMOND wrote:

    OK, let me start with I'm for gun control. (No one really needs an AR-15
    unless you're in a war trying to kill lots of people.)

    You don't get to decide what anybody else needs, you can decide what YOU
    need, though.

    Yet he/whomever DOES get to decide if a woman "needs" an abortion or not?

    No he doesn't, SHE does

    Not according to the supporters of the Alabama legislation.

    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to David Drummond on Monday, May 27, 2019 06:08:44
    On 2019 May 27 11:10:12, you wrote to BOB ACKLEY:

    Yet he/whomever DOES get to decide if a woman "needs" an abortion or
    not?

    No he doesn't, SHE does

    Not according to the supporters of the Alabama legislation.

    that's the problem... who the hell do those men think they are to tell women what they can do with their bodies? bodies that those men simply do not understand how they work...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Fathers are important people too!
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to David Drummond on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:11:07
    Hello David,

    OK, let me start with I'm for gun control. (No one really needs an
    AR-15
    unless you're in a war trying to kill lots of people.)

    You don't get to decide what anybody else needs, you can decide
    what YOU
    need, though.

    Yet he/whomever DOES get to decide if a woman "needs" an abortion or
    not?

    No he doesn't, SHE does

    Not according to the supporters of the Alabama legislation.

    It's worse in Mississippi.

    There is only one city in Mississippi where a woman can get
    an abortion. That is Jackson. Actually, one building in Jackson.
    A small pink building.

    A woman in Mississippi can get an abortion up to 15 weeks pregnant.
    If she is 16 weeks pregnant she is shit out of luck and must carry
    to term.

    The building next door to the building where women can get an
    abortion is a crisis pregnancy center. This is where women who
    have no money go when they want to have an abortion. The folks
    at the crisis pregnancy center are not there to help women get
    an abortion, but to stonewall women long enough so that they
    can no longer get an abortion.

    If you are a woman, have no money, and are just a little bit
    pregnant, you may not know you are pregnant until well after you
    are 15 weeks pregnant. How are you going to get out this pickle
    when the place you are staying is not all that stable?

    Hopping on a bus to go to California in order to get an abortion
    is not all that easy for someone in Mississippi who has no money.

    --Lee

    --
    Stop Workin', Start Jerkin'

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Dan Clough on Tuesday, May 14, 2019 16:18:59
    On 14/05/2019 11:30, Dan Clough -> David Drummond wrote:

    And I didn't bother to view the video, what madness happens in
    your country is not my problem.

    And yet you feel the need to (frequently) comment on what happens
    here in this country.

    I take my lead from the example shown by the USAmericans.

    Mind your own business if it's not your problem.

    That does not stop me from making an observation. 'Freedom of speech" is not your exclusive realm.

    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Gregory Deyss on Tuesday, May 14, 2019 16:23:43
    On 14/05/2019 12:43, Gregory Deyss -> David Drummond wrote:

    You have to appreciate that not everyone has been indoctrinated in the
    "American Way", some of us see the world a little differently to many
    USAmericans.

    I would think that living in peace can appeal to everyone everywhere not
    just
    Americans.

    I can see the appeal to USAmericans - they have so little peace - if what we're
    told in the news is to be believed.

    And I didn't bother to view the video, what madness happens in your
    country is not my problem.

    Great then you might want to check this out as it is happening in your own back yard.


    https://barenakedislam.com/2011/02/14/australia-rocks-calling-for-a-10-year-ban
    -on-muslim-immigration/

    I am a guest in this country - I have no influence over what they do.

    I would guess there are proportionately as many narrow minded bigots in Australia as there are there.

    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Gregory Deyss on Wednesday, May 15, 2019 01:08:24
    Hello Greg,

    Everybody loves children. Right?
    Especially Muslim children. Right?
    Here are Muslim children.
    All singing the same old song.
    In the City of Brotherly Love - Philadelphia, Pennsylvania USA

    Truly a sight to behold, isn't it?

    This facility should be immediately shutdown and demolished.
    Next the so called American-Muslim society should be eliminated.

    Islam means "peace and submission to Allah". Those who refuse
    get what they deserve. According to their holy book.

    Why?

    The twisted mentality of a small handful of people does not mean
    that all Muslims have the same "off with their heads" mentality.
    Remember, these are small children who have been taught to hate.
    Taught to hate by grown adults who should know better.

    These two cultures; Christians and Muslims are in serious conflict with
    one
    another and have been for hundreds of years. To suggest otherwise is being extremely naive.

    Islam is anti-war and anti-violence.
    Christianity is anti-war and anti-violence.
    Judaism is anti-war and anti-violence.

    Or so it is claimed by adherents of those three faiths.

    If one is anti-violence, let him or her condemn *all* acts of violence. Otherwise, that person is nothing but a hypocrite. Regardless of what
    faith he/she claims to be.

    If one is anti-war, let him or her condemn *all* wars. Let him/her
    declare war an anathema that should be cleansed from the face of this
    planet. Otherwise, that person is nothing but a hypocrite. Regardless
    of what faith he/she claims to be.

    To teach little children to hate their neighbor is anti-Christian,
    anti-Muslim, and anti-Jewish. So what does that make those who teach
    such hatred?

    What escaped to the media and to the world of children singing about chopping off heads; is really who they are and it is what they believe.

    What about white nationalist extremists who chant Nazi slogans?
    What do you think they teach their children?

    They want to be intolerant and have this ideology of which supports this disgusting action and belief?

    We have all seen video of neo-Nazis in Charlottesville, Virginia
    chanting their slogans and lighting torches. Including one of them
    who plowed his car into a crowd of innocent people, injuring dozens
    and killing one.

    Fine... then they will learn what the true meaning of the word means, to
    be
    intolerant. There must be NO tolerance to allow this disease to continue
    to
    exist within the United States of America.

    Who is going to stop them? Rather than chastise, Donald Trump eggs
    them on at his rallies. During a rally in Florida after saying a few
    words about illegal immigrants crossing the border, someone in the
    audience shouted "Shoot them!" What did the president do? Nothing.
    As if it was fine for people to take the law into their own hands
    and start shooting immigrants just because they can.

    How is that any different than little children singing about
    chopping the heads off those who are not Muslim?

    --Lee

    --
    We Put Big Loads In Tight Places

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to David Drummond on Tuesday, May 14, 2019 19:39:38
    I can see the appeal to USAmericans - they have so little peace - if
    what we're told in the news is to be believed.

    Yeah, You got a point there is no way that I watch CNN, or NBC, the news is
    not the news any longer and it's nothing more then a production, in other words, It's Fake News.

    I would guess there are proportionately as many narrow minded bigots in Australia as there are there.

    That might be so but Australia, is not alone with it's stance when it comes
    to Muslims and you may be surprised to learn that I am not talking about the U.S.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)
  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to Lee Lofaso on Tuesday, May 14, 2019 19:56:20
    Islam means "peace and submission to Allah". Those who refuse
    get what they deserve. According to their holy book.

    but the U.S. is primarily is a Christian Nation.

    The twisted mentality of a small handful of people does not mean
    that all Muslims have the same "off with their heads" mentality.
    Remember, these are small children who have been taught to hate.

    Where there are a few there are thousands, but it's always too late when
    when they shout Allahu akbar!

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)
  • From ernie@1:267/118 to Dan Clough on Tuesday, May 21, 2019 15:40:54
    On 18 May 2019, Dan Clough said the following...

    Re: Muslim Kids
    By: David Drummond to Gregory Deyss on Thu May 16 2019 10:50 am
    For someone (like me) who has a loaded pistol in my nightstand, the outcome will likely be two dead thugs, and my family and property safe.

    Hi Dan, I have a question. I have no issues with your reasoning. I fully understand you wanting/needing to protect your family/etc. (and even the sporting aspect.)

    I'm curious as to why this scenario always ends up with 'dead thugs' or
    some such.

    Why isn't the goal ever to incapacitate the 'thugs' to ensure they go through the system, receive punishment for their crimes and suffer in prison? (Hell, depending on what they've done, I'm OK with them living their life in
    solitary so they never get to interact with another human again.)

    Is murdering an individual because they entered your house really
    justification for murder?

    (Do I really have the right to decide whether someone else's life has no value and can terminate it without going through the judicial process?)

    (I do understand that there may be situations where you injure them and they continue to attempt to attack, which very well may be justification.)

    ---
    Ernest J Gainey III - LostCause Halfway House BBS
    telnet://bbs.lostcause.house
    http://bbs.lostcause.house

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/02 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: LostCause Halfway House BBS (1:267/118)
  • From ernie@1:267/118 to David Drummond on Tuesday, May 21, 2019 15:43:07
    As opposed to the uberlords of USA's plan for the world and its people? The USAmericans even seem to think they are "the chosen people" living
    in "the greatest nation on earth".

    We do kind of act like we rule the whole world, don't we? :(

    ---
    Ernest J Gainey III - LostCause Halfway House BBS
    telnet://bbs.lostcause.house
    http://bbs.lostcause.house

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/02 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: LostCause Halfway House BBS (1:267/118)
  • From ernie@1:267/118 to David Drummond on Tuesday, May 21, 2019 15:49:19
    On 19 May 2019, David Drummond said the following...
    On 19/05/2019 13:12, Dan Clough -> David Drummond wrote:
    1. Sport/target shooting. Challenging and fun.

    Shooting at innocent chunks of clay hurled into the air is challenging
    and fun? How about you are the chunks of clay and see how challenging
    and fun that it.

    OK, let me start with I'm for gun control. (No one really needs an AR-15 unless you're in a war trying to kill lots of people.)

    Your argument though, is a little silly and not going to change views closer
    to yours. :)

    If you had gone with shooting living animals... I may have chuckled less. :)_

    ---
    Ernest J Gainey III - LostCause Halfway House BBS
    telnet://bbs.lostcause.house
    http://bbs.lostcause.house

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/02 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: LostCause Halfway House BBS (1:267/118)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to ernie on Wednesday, May 22, 2019 09:15:10
    On 22/05/2019 05:43, ernie -> David Drummond wrote:
    As opposed to the uberlords of USA's plan for the world and its people?
    The USAmericans even seem to think they are "the chosen people" living
    in "the greatest nation on earth".

    We do kind of act like we rule the whole world, don't we? :(

    This too will pass.

    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to ernie on Wednesday, May 22, 2019 09:18:26
    On 22/05/2019 05:49, ernie -> David Drummond wrote:

    Shooting at innocent chunks of clay hurled into the air is challenging
    and fun? How about you are the chunks of clay and see how challenging
    and fun that it.

    OK, let me start with I'm for gun control. (No one really needs an AR-15 unless you're in a war trying to kill lots of people.)

    That appears to be what the USAMerican culture is based on - killing as many non-USAmericans as possible ... and killing as many USAMericans as possible.

    Your argument though, is a little silly and not going to change views
    closer
    to yours. :)

    I have no desire to change the gun mentality of the USAmericans - the more guns
    they have the more of each other they eliminate - making fewer of them to kill
    those of us out here in the free world.

    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to ernie on Tuesday, May 21, 2019 19:08:00
    ernie wrote to David Drummond <=-

    > DC> 1. Sport/target shooting. Challenging and fun.

    Shooting at innocent chunks of clay hurled into the air is challenging
    and fun? How about you are the chunks of clay and see how challenging
    and fun that it.

    OK, let me start with I'm for gun control.

    Why? Has it been proven to work? Like in Chicago?

    (No one really needs an AR-15 unless you're in a war trying to
    kill lots of people.)

    Well, that's your opinion, anyway. Pretty hard to define "need"
    sometimes. Quite easy to define a Constitutional right, though.

    By the way, AR-15's are not used in war. By anybody.


    ... Press any key to continue or any other key to quit
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    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to ernie on Tuesday, May 21, 2019 19:22:00
    ernie wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    For someone (like me) who has a loaded pistol in my nightstand, the outcome will likely be two dead thugs, and my family and property safe.

    Hi Dan, I have a question. I have no issues with your reasoning.
    I fully understand you wanting/needing to protect your
    family/etc. (and even the sporting aspect.)

    Glad to hear.

    I'm curious as to why this scenario always ends up with 'dead
    thugs' or some such.

    Why isn't the goal ever to incapacitate the 'thugs' to ensure
    they go through the system, receive punishment for their crimes
    and suffer in prison? (Hell, depending on what they've done, I'm
    OK with them living their life in solitary so they never get to
    interact with another human again.)

    The goal in a home defense scenario is not *necessarily* to kill
    the intruders. It is to end the threat to life and property.
    Since you probably don't know the extent of the armament of the
    intruders, you can take no chances. The customary (widely
    accepted and not subject to interpretation) procedure is to end
    the threat as soon as possible. Therefore anyone with any
    training is taught to aim at the "center of mass". If you are
    skilled (and a little lucky perhaps), that's where your bullet(s)
    will hit. Since that is probably the chest/torso area of the
    intruder, there's a pretty good chance that that may result in
    killing them (heart/lungs/etc).

    Look at it this way - if you purposely shot them in the leg to
    incapacitate them, then maybe they are laying there on the floor
    and stopped for the moment. What if there are two or more of
    them? If you turn away to engage another threat, what would stop
    that first one from pulling a gun and killing you while laying on
    the floor? You can't take that chance. Another thing to remember
    is that it is likely that the room(s) you are in are very dimly
    lit or even almost pitch black. You shoot at the target until it
    is neutralized and that's it. You just can't take a chance in
    doing it any other way.

    Is murdering an individual because they entered your house really justification for murder?

    In the laws of any state that I know of..... Yes.

    Again, you don't know their intentions and have every right to
    protect yourself.

    (Do I really have the right to decide whether someone else's life
    has no value and can terminate it without going through the
    judicial process?)

    Yes, you do, in the situations I am describing.

    (I do understand that there may be situations where you injure
    them and they continue to attempt to attack, which very well may
    be justification.)

    Discussed that above, and remember that you could become *DEAD*
    because you allowed them to "continue to attempt to attack".

    Hope this clears things up a little for you.


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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Dan Clough on Wednesday, May 22, 2019 06:21:57
    OK, let me start with I'm for gun control.

    Why? Has it been proven to work? Like in Chicago?

    The world is soooo much bigger than the USofA and it's cities. Try any civilized country in the world...



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