• FidoNews 36:21 [00/07]: The Front Page

    From FidoNews Robot@2:2/2 to All on Monday, May 27, 2019 00:54:41
    The F I D O N E W S Volume 36, Number 21 27 May 2019 +--------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
    | |The newsletter of the | | |
    | | FidoNet community. | | Netmail attach to (POTS): |
    | | | | Editor @ 2:2/2 (+46-31-960447) |
    | | ____________| | |
    | | / __ | Netmail attach to (BinkP): |
    | | / / \ | Editor @ 2:203/0 |
    | | WOOF! ( /|oo \ | |
    | \_______\(_| /_) | Email attach to: |
    | _ @/_ \ _ | b @ felten dot se |
    | | | \ \\ | |
    | | (*) | \ ))| |
    | |__U__| / \// | Editor: Bjrn Felten |
    | ______ _//|| _\ / | |
    | / Fido \ (_/(_|(____/ | Newspapers should have no friends. |
    | (________) (jm) | -- JOSEPH PULITZER | +--------------------------+-----------------------------------------+


    Table of Contents
    1. GENERAL ARTICLES ......................................... 1
    Ward Dossches Corolary on Godwins Law .................. 1
    2. LIST OF FIDONET IPV6 NODES ............................... 2
    List of IPv6 nodes ....................................... 2
    3. JAMNNTPD SERVERS LIST .................................... 5
    The Johan Billing JamNNTPd project ....................... 5
    4. FIDONEWS'S FIDONET SOFTWARE LISTING ...................... 6
    5. SPECIAL INTEREST ......................................... 13
    Statistics from the Fidoweb .............................. 13
    Nodelist Stats ........................................... 14
    6. FIDONEWS INFORMATION ..................................... 16
    How to Submit an Article ................................. 16
    Credits, Legal Infomation, Availability .................. 18

    --- Azure/NewsPrep 3.0
    * Origin: Home of the Fidonews (2:2/2.0)
  • From FidoNews Robot@2:2/2 to All on Monday, May 27, 2019 00:54:41
    =================================================================
    GENERAL ARTICLES =================================================================

    Ward Dossches Corolary on Godwins Law
    Ward Dossche - 2:292/854


    "When a discussion in an electronic forum with a US citizen
    grows longer (regardless of topic or scope), the
    likelihood of becoming sidetracked to US Presidential
    elections, the 2nd Amendment or We saved your asses in
    WW2 increases exponentially."

    Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi
    Analogies) is a saying made by Mike Godwin in 1990.
    The law states: "As a discussion on the Internet
    grows longer, the likelihood of a comparison of a
    person's being compared to Hitler or another Nazi
    reference, increases.".


    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    --- Azure/NewsPrep 3.0
    * Origin: Home of the Fidonews (2:2/2.0)
  • From FidoNews Robot@2:2/2 to All on Monday, May 27, 2019 00:54:41
    =================================================================
    LIST OF FIDONET IPV6 NODES =================================================================

    List of IPv6 nodes
    By Michiel van der Vlist, 2:280/5555

    Updated 20 May 2019


    Node Nr. Sysop Type Provider Remark

    1 2:280/464 Wilfred van Velzen Native Xs4All f
    2 2:280/5003 Kees van Eeten Native Xs4All f
    3 2:5019/40 Konstantin Kuzov T-6in4 he.net f PO4
    4 2:280/5555 Michiel van der Vlist Native Ziggo f
    5 1:320/219 Andrew Leary Native Comcast f
    6 2:221/1 Tommi Koivula T-6in4 he.net f
    7 2:221/6 Tommi Koivula T-6in4 he.net f
    8 2:5053/54 Denis Mikhlevich Native TTK-Volga
    9 2:5030/257 Vova Uralsky Native PCextreme
    10 1:154/10 Nicholas Bol Native Spectrum f
    11 2:203/0 Bjrn Felten T-6in4 he.net
    12 2:280/5006 Kees van Eeten Native Xs4All f INO4
    13 3:712/848 Scott Little T-6RD iiNet f IO
    14 2:5020/545 Alexey Vissarionov Native Hetzner f
    15 1:103/17 Stephen Hurd T-6in4 he.net
    16 2:5020/9696 Alexander Skovpen T-6to4 Westlan
    17 2:301/812 Benoit Panizzon Native IMPNET
    18 2:421/790 Viktor Cizek T-6in4 he.net
    19 2:222/2 Kim Heino Native TeliaSonera
    20 3:633/280 Stephen Walsh Native AusNetServers f
    21 2:463/877 Alex Shuman Native Nline f IO
    22 1:19/10 Matt Bedynek T-6in4 he.net
    23 3:770/1 Paul Hayton T-6in4 he.net
    24 2:5053/58 Alexander Kruglikov Native Aruba S.p.a f
    25 1:103/1 Stephen Hurd Native Choopa
    26 3:633/281 Stephen Walsh Native Internode
    27 2:310/31 Richard Menedetter Native DE-NETCUP f
    28 3:633/410 Tony Langdon Native IINET
    29 2:5005/33 Evgeny Zyatkov Native RUCITYCONNECT f 6DWN
    30 2:5020/329 Oleg Lukashin Native Comfortel f
    31 2:246/1305 Emil Schuster Native TAL.DE
    32 2:2448/4000 Tobias Burchhardt Native DTAG IO
    33 2:331/51 Marco d'Itri Native BOFH-IT
    34 1:154/30 Mike Miller Native LINODE
    35 1:282/1031 Jeff Smith Native Qwest
    36 2:5001/100 Dmitry Protasoff Native Hetzner
    37 2:5059/38 Andrey Mundirov T-6in4 he.net
    38 2:240/5853 Philipp Giebel Native Hetzner
    39 2:2452/413 Ingo Juergensmann Native RRBONE-COLO f
    40 1:123/10 Wayne Smith T-6in4 he.net
    41 2:5021/46 Dmitry Komissarov Native THEFIRST
    42 2:4500/1 Eugene Kozhuhovsky Native DATAHATA6 6DWN
    43 1:135/300 Eric Renfro Native Choopa
    44 1:103/13 Stephen Hurd Native Choopa
    45 2:5020/1042 Michael Dukelsky Native FORPSI Ktis f
    46 2:5095/0 Sergey V. Efimoff T-6in4 he.net
    47 2:5095/20 Sergey V. Efimoff T-6in4 he.net
    48 4:902/26 Fernando Toledo T-6in4 he.net 6DWN
    49 2:400/2992 Avshalom Donskoi Native OVH f PM*1
    50 2:5019/400 Konstantin Kuzov Native LT-LT
    51 2:467/239 Mihail Kapitanov T-6in4 he.net f
    52 2:463/1331 Andrei Dzedolik Native DIGITALOCEAN
    53 2:5010/275 Evgeny Chevtaev T-6in4 TUNNELBROKER-0 f
    54 2:5020/736 Egor Glukhov Native VPSVILLE f
    55 2:280/2000 Michael Trip Native Xs4All
    56 2:230/38 Benny Pedersen Native Linode
    57 2:460/58 Stas Mishchenkov T-6in4 he.net f
    58 1 135/367 Antonio Rivera Native RRSW-V6
    59 2:5020/2123 Anton Samsonov T-6in4 he.net
    60 2:5020/2332 Andrey Ignatov Native ru.rtk
    61 2:5005/49 Victor Sudakov T-6in4 he.net
    62 2:5005/77 Valery Lutoshkin T-6in4 NTS f
    63 2:5005/106 Alexey Osiyuk T-6in4 he.net f
    64 1:153/757 Alan Ianson Native TELUS
    65 2:5057/53 Ivan Kovalenko T-6in4 he.net f
    66 2:5020/921 Andrew Savin Native Starlink
    67 2:5010/352 Dmitriy Smirnov Native EkranTV f
    69 2:292/854 Ward Dossche Native Belgacom OO
    69 2:469/122 Sergey Zabolotny Native ARUBA-NET f
    70 2:5053/400 Denis Mikhlevich Native TTK-Volga
    71 1:14/5 Jeff Smith Native Qwest

    T-6in4 Static 6in4
    T-AYIY Dynamic AYIYA
    T-6to4 6to4
    T-6RD 6RD

    Remarks:

    f Has a ::f1d0:<zone>:<net>:<node> style host address
    IO Incoming only (Node can not make outgoing IPv6 calls)
    OO Outgoing only (Node can not accept incoming IPv6 calls)
    INO4 No IPv4 (Node can not accept incoming IPv4 calls)
    PO4 Prefers Out on 4 (Node can make outgoing IPv6 calls,
    but is configured to try IPv4 first)
    6DWN The IPv6 connectivity of this node is temporarely down.
    DOWN This node is temporarely down for both IPv4 and IPv6
    PM Prospective Member. The node has demonstrated IPv6
    capability but is not listed or does not advertise an
    IPv6 address in the Fidonet nodelist yet.
    *1 IPv6 address: 2001:41d0:303:69c6:f1d0:2:400:2992


    Notes:

    To make an IPv6 connection to a node connected via 6to4 tunneling
    one may have to force the mailer into IPv6 (-6 option in binkd's
    node config for binkd up to 1.1a-96, -64 option for binkd 1.1a-97
    and up). If the destination address is a 6to4 tunnel address
    (2002::/16) many OSs default to IPv4 if an IPv4 address is present.
    Submitted on day 146

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    --- Azure/NewsPrep 3.0
    * Origin: Home of the Fidonews (2:2/2.0)
  • From FidoNews Robot@2:2/2 to All on Monday, May 27, 2019 00:54:41
    =================================================================
    JAMNNTPD SERVERS LIST =================================================================

    The Johan Billing JamNNTPd project

    This is a list of known JamNNTPd servers working. They are essentially
    the modern version of Bulletin Board Systems.

    You connect to them using the newsreader of your choice and you don't
    need any other software installed on your computer -- regardless of
    operating system -- but that favourite mail client of yours.

    Even smart phones can handle this, giving you the opportunity to get
    your daily doses of fidonet on the bus, tram or train on the way to
    your job, school or whatever.


    Updated 2019-02-23


    URL news://eljaco.se
    Join http://fidonews.eu
    NETMAIL Yes, 2:203/2

    URL news://rbb.bbs.fi
    Join Info in group +GETACCESS+
    NETMAIL Yes, 2:221/360

    URL nntp://fidonews.mine.nu
    URL nntps://fidonews.mine.nu
    Join http://fidonews.mine.nu
    NETMAIL Yes, 2:221/6

    URL nntp://news.bytemuseum.org
    nntps://news.bytemuseum.org (secure)
    Join Info in group +ACCCESS&SUPPORT+
    NETMAIL Yes, 1:19/10

    URL nntp://news.pharcyde.org
    Join Info in group, +GETACCESS+
    NETMAIL Yes, 1:154/10

    URL: news.tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    Join mailto:sysop@tequilamockingbirdonline.net
    NETMAIL Yes, 1:266/404

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    --- Azure/NewsPrep 3.0
    * Origin: Home of the Fidonews (2:2/2.0)
  • From FidoNews Robot@2:2/2 to All on Monday, May 27, 2019 00:54:41
    =================================================================
    FIDONEWS'S FIDONET SOFTWARE LISTING =================================================================



    =================================================================
    FIDONET SOFTWARE LISTING
    =================================================================

    BBS Software List

    Updated 2019-05-09

    Maintained by Andrew Leary (1:320/219)
    Editors Emeritus: Robert Couture, Janis Kracht,
    Sean Dennis

    M=Mailer T=Tosser B=BBS D=Door C=Comm/Terminal
    P=Points E=Editor I=Internet U=Utility #=Info
    F=TIC/SRIF Processor

    *=Software is available and may be registerable,
    but no longer supported or updated.

    @=Website is operating but is no longer updated.

    ?=Software's updating/support status is unknown.

    O=Software is open source.

    This list contains BBS-related software that is available
    for registration (not necessarily supported), open source
    software and actively developed/supported software by its
    author. Software listed may be available for DOS, Linux,
    OS/2 (eComStation), Windows (16 or 32 bit) and OSX.

    .- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -.
    |Software: Author |Type |URL, Contact, Ver, Notes Help Node|
    `- - - - - - - - - - -+- - -+- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -'

    ==> FRONT-END/INTERNET MAILERS

    Argus |MI*? |http://www.ritlabs.com/en/products
    | | /argus/
    | | v3.210 on 2001-03-29

    BinkleyTerm XE |MO* |http://btxe.sourceforge.net
    | | 2.60XE Beta-XH7 on 2000-10-22

    BinkD |MI? |http://binkd.grumbler.org
    | | gul@gul.kiev.ua 2:463/68
    | | v.1.0.4
    | | v.1.1a-99 (alpha)
    | | ftp://cvs.happy.kiev.ua/pub/fidosoft
    | | /mailer/binkd/
    | |http://www.filegate.net/r50/aftnbinkd/

    D'Bridge |MTCPE|http://www.dbridgemailer.com
    |I | support@dbridgemailer.com 1:1/130
    Nick Andre | | v3.99 SR 42 on 2019-04-20

    FIDO-Deluxe IP |MPUI |http://www.datenbahn.dd-dns.de/
    | | cdp/fp_deluxe/
    | | v2.4 on 2003-09-26

    FrontDoor, FD/APX: |MITPC|http://www.defsol.se 2:20/4609
    Definite Solutions |E | sales@defsol.se
    | | FD v2.33ml, FD/APX v1.15

    InterMail |MCPE |http://www.Intermail.net 1:220/60
    Dale Barnes | | dalebarnes42@majik.net
    | | IM v2.60 on 2017-08-28

    Husky Project |MTPUI|http://husky.sourceforge.net/
    |EO? | v1.9 RC2 on 2010-04-20

    Taurus |MI |http://www.fidotel.com/public/forums/
    (based on Radius) |? | taurus/index.htm
    | | v5.0 on 2006-06-12
    | |

    T-Mail |MI |http://www.tmail.spb.ru (Russian only)
    |? | v2608 on 2001-12-12

    AfterShock |MTEI |https://play.google.com/store/apps/
    Asvcorp | | details?id=com.asvcorp.aftershock
    Anatoly Vdovichev | | rudi.timmer@mail.ch 2:292/140
    Rudi Timmermans | | v1.6.7 on 2017-11-19

    HotDogEd |E |https://play.google.com/store/apps/
    Sergey Pushkin | | details?id=com.pushkin.hotdoged
    | | v2.13.5 on 2017-03-13 2:5020/2141

    HotDogEd FidoNet |MTI |https://play.google.com/store/apps/
    Provider | | details?id=com.pushkin.hotdoged.fido
    Sergey Pushkin | | v2.13.5 on 2017-03-13 2:5020/2141

    +- - - - - - - - - - -+- - -+- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -+

    MAIL TOSSERS

    Crashmail II |TO |http://ftnapps.sourceforge.net/
    | | crashmail.html

    FastEcho |T |http://www.softeq.de/old/Products
    | | /FastEcho/fastecho.html
    | | v1.46.1 on 2007-11-13
    | | Registration keys are free & available
    | | by request from the author

    Fidogate |TUI? |http://www.fidogate.org
    | | v4.4.10 on 2004-08-27
    | |

    FMail |TO |https://sourceforge.net/projects/fmail/
    | | v2.0.1.4 on 2017-04-21

    InterEcho |T |http://www.Intermail.net 1:220/60
    Dale Barnes | | dalebarnes42@majik.net
    | | IE 1.20 on 2017-08-28

    JetMail: JetSys |TU |
    (ATARI ST only) | | v1.01 on 2000-01-01

    Squish |T* |http://www.filegate.net/maximus_bbs/
    | | v1.11R2 on 2009-01-01
    | | Source code available in Maximus BBS
    | | archive: http://maximus.sourceforge.net


    WWIVToss |T |http://www.weather-station.org/wwiv/
    | | v1.51 on 2015-05-23

    +- - - - - - - - - - -+- - -+- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -+

    BBS SOFTWARE

    BBBS |BICTM|http://www.bbbs.net 2:22/222
    | | b@bbbs.net
    | | v4.01 on 2007-01-28

    EleBBS |BO*? |http://www.elebbs.com
    | | v0.10.RC1 on 2002-06-09

    Enthral BBS |B |http://enthralbbs.com 1:250/501
    Linux/BSD/OSX | | v0.429/Alpha on 2010-10-14
    | | Fidonet filebone SCENEENT

    Ezycom BBS |BT* |http://www.ezycom-bbs.com 3:690/682
    | | v2.15g2 on 2009-11-16

    GT Power |B |http://www.gtpowerbbs.com/
    | | v19.00

    Hermes II Project |BT |http://www.hermesbbs.com/
    Macintosh-based | | malyn@strangegizmo.com
    | | v3.5.10b3

    Maximus BBS |BO* |http://www.filegate.net/maximus_bbs/
    | | v3.03
    | | Source code available at:
    | | http://maximus.sourceforge.net/

    MBSE BBS |BMTFI|http://sourceforge.net/projects/mbsebbs
    |PO | ajleary@sourceforge.net
    | | v1.0.7.12 on 2019-03-15

    Meltdown BBS |UIO |http://meltdown-bbs.sourceforge.net/
    | | v1.0b on 2004-04-26

    Mystic BBS |BMTCE|http://www.mysticbbs.com
    |IO | v1.12 A43 on 2019-02-01

    NiKom BBS (Amiga) |BO |http://www.nikom.org
    | | v2.3.1 on 2017-07-01

    RemoteAccess BBS |B? |http://www.rapro.com 1:1/120
    | | bfmorse@rapro.com
    | | v2.62.2SW

    Renegade BBS |B |http://renegadebbs.info 1:129/305
    | | v1.10/DOS on 2009-10-03

    Spitfire BBS |B? |http://www.buffalocrk.com/
    | | mdwoltz@buffalocrk.com
    | | v3.7 on 2010-01-01

    Synchronet BBS |BMTIO|http://www.synchro.net 1:103/705
    | | v3.17b on 2019-01-01

    Telegard BBS |B* |
    | | v3.09g2-sp4/mL on 1999-12-19

    WildCat! Interactive |MTBEI|http://www.santronics.com
    Net Server, Platinum| | sales@santronics.com
    Xpress: Santronics | |
    Software, Inc. | | v7.0 AUP 454.5 on 2016-06-23

    WWIV BBS |B |http://www.wwivbbs.org
    | | v5.00 on 2015-12-14

    +- - - - - - - - - - -+- - -+- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -+

    TIC PROCESSORS/FILEFIX/SRIF

    Allfix |FIUT |http://www.allfix.com/ 1:140/12
    Bob Seaborn | | v6.0.22 on 2011-01-26

    NEF/pk |F |http://nefpk.8m.com/
    | | v2.45b2 on 2000-03-05

    TinyTIC |FO |http://ftnapps.sourceforge.net
    | | /tinytic.html
    | | 1:120/544

    VIReq |FO |http://ftnapps.sourceforge.net
    | | /vireq.html
    | | 1:120/544

    +- - - - - - - - - - -+- - -+- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -+

    BBS DOORS/UTILITIES

    Cheepware |DU |http://outpostbbs.net/cheepware.html
    Sean Dennis | | sysop@outpostbbs.net 1:18/200
    | | Fidonet filebone CH-WARE

    DDS (Doorware |D@ |http://www.doorgames.org
    Distribution System)| | ruth@doorgames.org
    Ruth Argust | |

    Jibben Software |D* |http://www.jibbensoftware.com/
    | | bbs-door-games.cfm
    | | scott@jibben.com
    | | 1995-99 Release dates

    John Dailey Software |DU |http://www.johndaileysoftware.com

    Shining Star |D* |http://www.shiningstar.net/bbsdoors/
    | | nannette@shiningstar.net
    | | Doors are registerable via website

    Sunrise Doors: |D |http://www.sunrisedoors.com
    Al Lawrence | | al@sunrisedoors.com
    | | Tel: (404) 256-9518

    T1ny's Software |DU |http://www.tinysbbs.com/files/tsoft/
    Shawn Highfield | | shighfield@gmail.com 1:229/452
    | | Fidonet filebone CH-WARE

    The Brainex System |D |http://www.brainex.com/brainex_system/
    | | stanley@brainex.com
    | | 1994-99 Releases

    Trade Wars |D* |http://www.eisonline.com/tradewars/
    | | jpritch@eisonline.com
    | | v3.09 (DOS-32) in 2002

    Vagabond Software |DU* |http://vbsoft.dhakota.org
    | | d@dhakota.org
    | | Last update: 2008-04-11

    WWIVEdit |DE |http://www.weather-station.org/wwiv/
    | | v3.0 on 2011-06-27

    +- - - - - - - - - - -+- - -+- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -+

    POINT SOFTWARE

    CrossPoint (XP) |P? |http://www.crosspoint.de (German only)
    | | pm@crosspoint.de
    | | v3.12d on 1999-12-22

    FreeXP |P |http://www.freexp.de (German only)
    | | support@freexp.de
    | | v3.42 on 2010-06-27

    FidoIP |PO |http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki
    | | /fidoip/
    | | v.1.0.5 on 2010-12

    OpenXP |PIO |https://sourceforge.net/projects
    | | /openxp5/ 2:240/2188.31
    | |http://openxp.uk Windows/Linux
    | | dev@openxp.uk English/German
    | | v5.0.28 on 2016-09-10

    WinPoint |P? |http://www.winpoint.org
    | | English/German/Spanish
    | | v5 (Beta Release) on 2017-03-17
    +- - - - - - - - - - -+- - -+- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -+

    SYSOP MAIL EDITORS

    GoldEd+ |EO |http://golded-plus.sourceforge.net/
    | | v1.1.5 (Snapshot) on 2015-11-30
    | | NOTE: Unstable versions released often

    SqEd32 |E |http://www.sqed.de 2:2476/493
    | | v1.15 on 1999-12-15
    | | Website is in German and English

    +- - - - - - - - - - -+- - -+- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -+

    INTERNET UTILITIES

    Ifmail |UIO |http://ifmail.sourceforge.net
    | | crosser@average.org

    Internet Rex |UI? |http://members.shaw.ca/InternetRex/
    | | telnet://xanadubbs.ca 1:342/806
    | | v2.29 on 2001-10-21

    JamNNTPd |UIO |http://ftnapps.sourceforge.net
    | | /jamnntpd.html
    | | 1:120/544

    Luckygate |UO | ftp://happy.kiev.ua/pub/fidosoft/gate
    | | /lgate
    | | gul@gul.kiev.ua

    MakeNL |UO |http://makenl.sourceforge.net
    | | v3.4.6 on 2016-12-01

    RNtrack |U |http://sourceforge.net/projects
    | | /ftrack-as 2:5080/102
    | |stas_degteff@users.sourceforge.net
    | | v1.32 on 2011-04-29

    TransNet |UIO? |http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mressl/
    | | transnet/index.html
    | | transnet@ressl.com.ar
    | | v2.11 on 2007-09-13

    +- - - - - - - - - - -+- - -+- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -+
    INFORMATIONAL WEBSITES/BBS LISTS

    Telnet/Dialup BBS |# |http://www.telnetbbsguide.com 1:275/89
    Guide | | Maintained by Dave Perrussel
    | | This is probably the most updated BBS
    | | list on the Internet for a general
    | | BBS list.

    Synchronet BBS List |# |http://www.synchro.net/sbbslist.html
    | | Maintained automatically
    | | This list is specifically for
    | | Synchronet-based BBS systems and is
    | | automatically updated nightly.

    The BBS Corner |# |http://www.bbscorner.com
    | | This website is more than just files,
    | | it's an encyclopedia of knowledge for
    | | BBS sysops and people who want to
    | | become sysops. This site is run by
    | | the same person who does the Telnet
    | | BBS Guide.

    BBS Nexus |# |https://bbsnexus.com
    | | This website offers a searchable list
    | | of Telnet BBS's.

    +- - - - - - - - - - -+- - -+- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -+

    File Archives:

    --- Azure/NewsPrep 3.0
    * Origin: Home of the Fidonews (2:2/2.0)
  • From FidoNews Robot@2:2/2 to All on Monday, May 27, 2019 00:54:41
    http://archives.thebbs.org
    http://sysopscorner.thebbs.org (site is no longer maintained)
    http://www.simtel.net
    http://www.bbsfiles.com
    http://hobbes.nmsu.edu (OS/2 specific)
    http://www.filegate.net/ (FTP access via port 60721)
    http://www.tinysbbs.com/files/

    Note: Most also provide FTP access (use ftp instead of http above)

    The BBS Software List is published weekly in the FidoNews.

    If you have corrections, suggestions or additions to the information
    above, please contact Andrew Leary with your information via the
    FIDONEWS echo or netmail at 1:320/219.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    --- Azure/NewsPrep 3.0
    * Origin: Home of the Fidonews (2:2/2.0)
  • From FidoNews Robot@2:2/2 to All on Monday, May 27, 2019 00:54:41
    =================================================================
    SPECIAL INTEREST =================================================================

    Last week's statistics from the Fidoweb
    By EchoTime, 2:203/0

    (Some nets may have lost their last
    digit for technical reasons)

    pkt (toss-toss) msg (write-toss)
    nodes mean dev no mean dev no

    154/* 5.0m 4.3m 291 1.2h 5.3h 290
    201/* 1.5m 0.5m 2 16.0h 6.8h 2
    221/* 0.6m 0.4m 248 4.9h 9.4h 244
    240/* 0.2m 0.2m 12 9.9h 4.3h 10
    280/* 0.8m 2.5m 439 6.5h 10.6h 436
    292/* 2.8m 1.7m 23 1.4h 3.9h 21
    320/* 2.2m 0.9m 289 2.8h 13.2h 288
    502/* 0.6m 0.2m 7 3.3h 6.0h 7

    Sigma 2.1m 3.0m 1311 4.1h 10.2h 1298

    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Nodelist Stats

    Input nodelist nodelist.144
    size 182.9kb
    date 2019-05-24

    The nodelist has 979 nodes in it
    and a total of 1446 non-comment entries

    including 4 zones
    31 regions
    170 hosts
    73 hubs
    admin overhead 278 ( 28.40 %)

    and 107 private nodes
    32 nodes down
    50 nodes on hold
    off line overhead 189 ( 19.31 %)


    Speed summary:

    >9600 = 58 ( 5.92 %)
    9600 = 214 ( 21.86 %)
    (HST = 8 or 3.74 %)
    (CSP = 0 or 0.00 %)
    (PEP = 0 or 0.00 %)
    (MAX = 0 or 0.00 %)
    (HAY = 0 or 0.00 %)
    (V32 = 83 or 38.79 %)
    (V32B = 27 or 12.62 %)
    (V34 = 107 or 50.00 %)
    (V42 = 83 or 38.79 %)
    (V42B = 29 or 13.55 %)
    2400 = 1 ( 0.10 %)
    1200 = 0 ( 0.00 %)
    300 = 706 ( 72.11 %)

    ISDN = 25 ( 2.55 %)

    -----------------------------------------------------
    IP Flags Protocol Number of systems -----------------------------------------------------
    IBN Binkp 747 ( 76.30 %) ----------------------------------
    IFC Raw ifcico 84 ( 8.58 %) ----------------------------------
    IFT FTP 63 ( 6.44 %) ----------------------------------
    ITN Telnet 155 ( 15.83 %) ----------------------------------
    IVM Vmodem 10 ( 1.02 %) ----------------------------------
    IP Other 5 ( 0.51 %) ----------------------------------
    INO4 IPv6 only 1 ( 0.10 %) ----------------------------------

    CrashMail capable = 829 ( 84.68 %)
    MailOnly nodes = 310 ( 31.66 %)
    Listed-only nodes = 25 ( 2.55 %)



    [Report produced by NETSTATS - A PD pgm]
    [ Revised by B Felten, 2:203/2]
    [ NetStats 3.8 2014-11-23]

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    --- Azure/NewsPrep 3.0
    * Origin: Home of the Fidonews (2:2/2.0)
  • From FidoNews Robot@2:2/2 to All on Monday, May 27, 2019 00:54:41
    =================================================================
    FIDONEWS INFORMATION =================================================================

    How to Submit an Article

    If you wish to submit an article for inclusion in the Fidonews, here
    are some guidelines, if you send it as an attached file; the preferred
    method if you want reasonable control over how the published article
    will appear in the Fidonews:

    a) Plain text. If you could type it on your keyboard, it's probably
    quite OK. No line may be longer than 70 characters.

    b) Put a title to the article. Put the title in two times. The first
    time, on the first line, with an * before it. The second time, on
    the second line, without the * and centered. This will help in the
    format since the title with the * is removed and used in the index,
    the second line will become the headline. On the third line, put
    your name and FidoNet address, present or former. If former, you
    may want to add some other address where you can be reached for
    personal comments.

    c) Deadline for article submission is Sunday, 22:00 UTC.


    In case a) and b) above is not crystal clear, here's an excellent
    summary by Ward Dossche, a major article contributor:

    Piece of cake:

    1) Ascii text
    2) Line length of 70
    3) Put this at the very top:

    *The title of your text
    The title of your text
    Your Name - Your Nodenumber

    The title is there twice, the line with the * is how it will be
    visible in the table of content.


    Help the Editor by following the above guides. Below are some subjects
    and the file extension for the article as set in the configuration
    file for the making of the Fidonews. Please help by putting the file
    extension of the correct subject on the file name if known.

    Ideas for Subject areas:

    Subject File | Subject File ----------------------------------|----------------------------------
    From the *C's *.css | Rebuttals to articles *.reb
    Fidonet Regional News *.reg | Fidonet Net News *.net
    Retractions *.rtx | General Fidonet Articles *.art
    Guest Editorial *.gue | Fidonet Current Events *.cur
    Fidonet Interviews *.inv | Fidonet Software Reviews *.rev
    Fidonet Web Page Reviews *.web | Fidonet Notices *.not
    Getting Fidonet Technical *.ftc | Question Of The Week *.que
    Humor in a Fido Vein *.hfv | Comix in ASCII *.cmx
    Fidonet's Int. Kitchen *.rec | Poet's Corner *.poe
    Clean Humor & Jokes *.jok | Other Stuff *.oth
    Fidonet Classified Ads *.ads | Corrections *.cor
    Best of Fidonet *.bof | Letters to the Editor *.let

    If you don't know or are not sure, send the article anyway. Put a .TXT
    on it and I'll try to figure out where it should be in the Fidonews.

    If you follow these simple guidelines, there should be little problem
    in getting your article published. If your submission is too far out
    of specs for the Fidonews, it will be returned to you and/or a message
    sent informing you of the problem. This DOES NOT mean that your
    article is not accepted. It means that there is something in it that I
    can not fix and I need your help on it.

    Send articles via e-mail or netmail, file attach or message to:

    Bjrn Felten
    Fidonet 2:2/2 or 2:203/0
    E-Mail b @ felten dot se
    Skype file bfelten

    IMPORTANT! If you send the article via e-mail, make sure you put the
    word "fidonews" somewhere in the subject line! That way it
    will always pass the spam filter, ending up in the proper
    folder.

    Please include a message, telling me that you have sent an article.
    That way I will know to look for it.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Credits, Legal Infomation, Availability

    + -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- FIDONEWS STAFF - -- -- -- -- -- -- -- +
    | |
    | Editor: Bjrn Felten, 2:2/2 |
    | |
    + -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- +

    + -- -- -- -- -- -- -- - EDITORS EMERITI - -- -- -- -- -- -- -- +
    | |
    | Tom Jennings, Thom Henderson, Dale Lovell, Vince |
    | Perriello, Tim Pozar, Sylvia Maxwell, Donald Tees, |
    | Christopher Baker, Zorch Frezberg, Henk Wolsink, |
    | Doug Meyers, Warren D. Bonner, Frank L. Vest |
    | |
    + -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- +

    Fidonews is published weekly by and for the members of Fidonet.
    There is no copyright attached to Fidonews, though authors
    retain rights to their contributed articles. Opinions expressed
    by the authors are strictly their own. Noncommercial duplication
    and distribution within Fidonet is encouraged. Authors are
    encouraged to send their articles in ASCII text to the Editor
    at one of the addresses above.

    The weekly edition of Fidonews is distributed through the file
    area FIDONEWS, and is published as echomail in the echo FIDONEWS.

    The different articles are distributed in the file area SNOOZE.
    A service to various projects for making Fidonews available on
    the web with a more pleasing lay-out.

    These sources are normally available through your Network
    Coordinator. The current and past issues are also available from
    the following sources:

    + -- -- -- -- -- -- - FIDONEWS AVAILABILITY - -- -- -- -- -- -- +
    | |
    | File request from 2:2/2 or 2:203/0: |
    | current issue FIDONEWS |
    | back issue, volume v, issue ii FNEWSvii.ZIP |
    | articles, vol.no nn, issue ii INPUnnii.ZIP |
    | |
    | On the web: |
    | http://eljaco.se/FILES/fnews/ |
    | http://fidonews.eu/FNEWS/ |
    | |
    | The Snooze *and* the FIDONEWS echo in your newsreader: |
    | news://eljaco.se/FIDONEWS |
    | |
    + -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- +

    -----------------------------------------------------------------


    ** Prepared for FIDONEWS by Azure/NewsPrep 3.0
    (c) Copyright 1996-1999 Peter Karlsson

    --- Azure/NewsPrep 3.0
    * Origin: Home of the Fidonews (2:2/2.0)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Bjorn Felten on Monday, May 27, 2019 09:31:26
    Hi FidoNews,

    On 2019-05-27 00:54:41, you wrote to All:

    @CHRS: CP850 2

    Ward Dossches Corolary on Godwins Law

    Something seems wrong here...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Wilfred van Velzen on Monday, May 27, 2019 09:41:43
    Hello Wilfred,

    On Monday May 27 2019 09:31, you wrote to Bjorn Felten:

    @CHRS: CP850 2

    Ward Dossches Corolary on Godwins Law

    Something seems wrong here...

    I noticed that as well. Our estimed Fidonews editor has patched the software to
    accept non-ASCII characters but he has neglected to specify the encoding for submitted articles, From what I gleen the article was submitted using CP1252 Aka Centraal-Europees Windows. The articles are published with a "CHRS 850 2" kludge.

    That's where it goes wrong.

    I suggest the editor accepts only articles encoded in UTF-8 and patches his software to use a "CHRS UTF-8 4" kludge.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Bjrn Felten@2:203/2 to Wilfred van Velzen on Monday, May 27, 2019 10:24:06
    Something seems wrong here...

    Well, if in doubt, there's always the actual Fidonews issue (FNEWTA21.ZIP) to rely on.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Monday, May 27, 2019 10:27:06
    MvdV> I suggest the editor accepts only articles encoded in UTF-8 and patches
    MvdV> his software to use a "CHRS UTF-8 4" kludge.

    Yeah, right. That would surely increase the number of contributions.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Monday, May 27, 2019 10:58:04
    MvdV> I noticed that as well. Our estimed Fidonews editor has patched the
    MvdV> software to accept non-ASCII characters but he has neglected to specify
    MvdV> the encoding for submitted articles, From what I gleen the article was
    MvdV> submitted using CP1252 Aka Centraal-Europees Windows. The articles are
    MvdV> published with a "CHRS 850 2" kludge.

    MvdV> That's where it goes wrong.

    Oh, BTW, your analysis is totally wrong.

    There are two programs involved here. The first is MAKENEWS.EXE that I indeed patched even before I became editor -- in October 2001 to be exact. This
    is the program that produces the actual Fidonews. For obvious reasons there are no kludges involved here, and neither are there any in the pure text files of the submitted articles.

    The second program is the NEWSPREP program that posts the Fidonews in this and another related echo. I don't have to patch it, because I have the source code. And I did make a change in it a decade or so ago, to go for "CHRS 850 2".
    It was on your request, so that your copyright symbol would show properly...




    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Michiel van der Vlist on Monday, May 27, 2019 11:00:48
    Hello Michiel!

    27 May 19 09:41, you wrote to Wilfred van Velzen:

    MvdV> I suggest the editor accepts only articles encoded in UTF-8 and patches
    MvdV> his software to use a "CHRS UTF-8 4" kludge.

    No, 7 bit pure ASCII only, would be less complex.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Kees van Eeten on Monday, May 27, 2019 11:25:50
    Hello Kees,

    On Monday May 27 2019 11:00, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> I suggest the editor accepts only articles encoded in UTF-8 and
    MvdV>> patches his software to use a "CHRS UTF-8 4" kludge.

    No, 7 bit pure ASCII only, would be less complex.

    For the ASCII only, English only community: Agreed.

    However... the editor has rebelled against the dominant ASCII only/English only
    culture in Fiodonet for decades and has repeatedly stated that articles in other languages are welcome. He has also been bragging that his software "has been patched for"/"is capable of" dealing with non-ASCII characters.

    Considering that these days most messages in Fiodonet are written in Cyrillic, one would expect that articles written in an encoding that covers Cyrillic are accepted.

    Also considering that the editor has been making an issue of the correct spelling of his first name for decades, one would expect that articles written in an encoding that covers the 'o' diaeresis are also accepted.

    AFAIK, the only encoding in use in Fidonet that covers both cyrillic and the 'o' diaeresis is UTF-8.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Kees van Eeten on Monday, May 27, 2019 12:16:04
    No, 7 bit pure ASCII only, would be less complex.

    You can please some of the people all of the time.
    You can please all of the people some of the time.
    But you can't please all the people all of the time.

    -- Originally by poet John Lydgate,
    made famous by Abraham Lincoln.


    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Björn Felten on Monday, May 27, 2019 06:11:58
    On 2019 May 27 10:58:04, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

    The second program is the NEWSPREP program that posts the Fidonews in
    this and another related echo. I don't have to patch it, because I
    have the source code. And I did make a change in it a decade or so
    ago, to go for "CHRS 850 2". It was on your request, so that your copyright symbol would show properly...

    apparently the character translation table is broken with regard to apostrophies...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... 30. When you're with new friends, don't just talk about old friends.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Michiel van der Vlist on Monday, May 27, 2019 12:17:06
    Hello Michiel!

    27 May 19 11:25, you wrote to me:

    MvdV> AFAIK, the only encoding in use in Fidonet that covers both cyrillic and
    MvdV> the 'o' diaeresis is UTF-8.

    I have the impression, that the majority that prefers Cyrrillic for their
    conversation, mainly use other encodings than UTF-8

    Those who are able to read UTF-8 encoded messages are free to do so in
    echo areas that promote that encoding.
    Publishing UTF-8 encoded messages in general areas like FIDONEWS, where
    UTF-8 readers are a minoriity, is even worse than mixing 8-bit encodings in
    one message.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Monday, May 27, 2019 12:15:36
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Monday May 27 2019 10:24, you wrote to Wilfred van Velzen:

    Something seems wrong here...

    Well, if in doubt, there's always the actual Fidonews issue (FNEWTA21.ZIP) to rely on.

    That does not solve the problem.

    For starters, there is no indication in the file itself what character encoding
    is used.

    So one has to make some assumptions about the encoding and do some trial and error. If I select CP437/CP850, the 'o' diaeresis in your name in the header is
    properly displayed. If I select CP1252 the single quote characters in Wards article are correctly displayed.

    I can find no encoding that results in both being corectly displayed.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Bj÷rn Felten on Monday, May 27, 2019 12:36:28
    Hello Bjrn!

    27 May 19 12:16, you wrote to me:

    No, 7 bit pure ASCII only, would be less complex.

    You can please some of the people all of the time.
    You can please all of the people some of the time.
    But you can't please all the people all of the time.

    -- Originally by poet John Lydgate,
    made famous by Abraham Lincoln.

    There have been times, when my stance was, that if my ASR33 does not
    support it, it is out of bounds. ;)

    Others still have that stance, beit, that they converted to all Lowercase.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Monday, May 27, 2019 12:43:34
    apparently the character translation table is broken with regard to apostrophies...

    Well, there is no translation taking place at all here (only at the readers'
    side where applicable). But you are right, it was a handful of apostrophises that caused all this brouhaha.

    Ah well, CP 850 is the primary code page and default OEM code page in many countries, including various English-speaking locales (e.g. in the United Kingdom, Ireland, and Canada).

    CP 850 differs from CP 437 (previously used in the echo postings) in that many of the box drawing characters, Greek letters, and various symbols were replaced with additional Latin letters with diacritics, thus greatly improving support for Western European languages (all characters from ISO 8859-1 are included).

    So I think I'll stick to CP 850 when posting the Fidonews in the echoes. Any
    objections, save from the UTF-8 fanatics?



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Monday, May 27, 2019 13:02:35
    MvdV> For starters, there is no indication in the file itself what character
    MvdV> encoding is used.

    Of course not, it's a pure text file FFS! DUH!



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Kees van Eeten on Monday, May 27, 2019 13:04:44
    Others still have that stance, beit, that they converted to all Lowercase.

    Nudge, nudge, know what I mean? <tm> Monty Python. 8-)



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Monday, May 27, 2019 12:31:17
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Monday May 27 2019 10:27, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> I suggest the editor accepts only articles encoded in UTF-8 and
    MvdV>> patches his software to use a "CHRS UTF-8 4" kludge.

    Yeah, right. That would surely increase the number of
    contributions.

    You never know until you try.

    You have rebelled againt the ASCII only/English only culture in Fidonet for decades and you have repeatedly stated that articles in other languages than English are welcome. There is a large reservoir of potential contributors east of us. Who knows what will surface if you make it possible for them to write in
    their own native language, using their own native character set.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Monday, May 27, 2019 13:26:31
    MvdV> There is a large reservoir of potential contributors east of us. Who
    MvdV> knows what will surface if you make it possible for them to write in
    MvdV> their own native language, using their own native character set.

    Seriously? Can you see a number of Russian articles, that only the Russians can read, in an international publication like the Fidonews? In any international echo for that matter?

    AFAIK, they already have a Russian version -- just like e.g. Sweden had until our editor passed away.

    Get real!

    No, dear readers, rest assured that as long as I am the editor, the Fidonews
    will remain English only. Using CP850.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Monday, May 27, 2019 13:40:16
    MvdV> you have repeatedly stated that articles in other languages than English
    MvdV> are welcome.

    (I missed this in my previous comment.)

    Repeatedly is not true. But when the zone wars ran at it's peak, I said at some point, that I was open for articles written in a non-English language just
    to watch the reaction.

    Alas, I don't remember if any of you who suggested this actually made such a
    contribution, but now that the zone wars are over and done with, there's no need for such an experiment. Now we are (almost) all one big family, speaking the same language. I still prefer e.g. 'humour' over 'humor' though, but that's
    just me. 8-)



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Monday, May 27, 2019 14:06:37
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Monday May 27 2019 10:58, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> I noticed that as well. Our estimed Fidonews editor has patched
    MvdV>> the software to accept non-ASCII characters but he has
    MvdV>> neglected to specify the encoding for submitted articles, From
    MvdV>> what I gleen the article was submitted using CP1252 Aka
    MvdV>> Centraal-Europees Windows. The articles are published with a
    MvdV>> "CHRS 850 2" kludge.

    MvdV>> That's where it goes wrong.

    Oh, BTW, your analysis is totally wrong.

    "Totally"? As in EVERYTHING I mentioned is wrong?

    There are two programs involved here.

    I mentioned "software". That can mean more than one program.

    The first is MAKENEWS.EXE that I indeed patched even before I became editor -- in October 2001 to be exact.

    So the part of my analysis that mentioned you patched software is correct.

    This is the program that produces the actual Fidonews. For obvious
    reasons there are no kludges involved here, and neither are there any
    in the pure text files of the submitted articles.

    Of course. That does not alter the fact that you neglected to specify in which encoding these "pure text files" should be submitted. Neither artspec.doc not the trailer in the snooze itself makes any mention of it. So that part of my analysis is also correct.

    The second program is the NEWSPREP program that posts the Fidonews
    in this and another related echo. I don't have to patch it, because I
    have the source code.

    So you may claim that part of my analysis is incomplete.

    And I did make a change in it a decade or so ago, to go for "CHRS 850
    2".

    And so the part of my analysis that stated the message in the echo displayed a "CHRS CP850 2" kludge is aldso correct.

    Are you disputing my part of the analysis that Ward's article was encoded in CP1252?

    Your claim that my analysis is "totally wrong" is wrong. The most you can say it that it is incomplete on one point.

    It was on your request, so that your copyright symbol would show properly...

    Be that as it may be, that does not make my analysis incorrect. I may indeed have made a request to that effect in the distant past. I am still not too old to adapt and gain new insight. If I made such a request I hereby withdraw it and make a plea for UTF-8.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Kees van Eeten on Monday, May 27, 2019 14:29:44
    Hello Kees,

    On Monday May 27 2019 12:17, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> AFAIK, the only encoding in use in Fidonet that covers both
    MvdV>> cyrillic and the 'o' diaeresis is UTF-8.

    I have the impression, that the majority that prefers Cyrrillic for
    their conversation, mainly use other encodings than UTF-8

    I think your impression is correct. In the echos where Russian or Ukranian is the dominant language, CP866 is the default character encoding. For files they often use KOI8-r.

    Those who are able to read UTF-8 encoded messages are free to do so in echo areas that promote that encoding. Publishing UTF-8 encoded
    messages in general areas like FIDONEWS, where UTF-8 readers are a minoriity, is even worse than mixing 8-bit encodings in one message.

    That is a matter of opinion. As a techie I would say that mixing 8 bit encodings in one and the same message or in one and the same file is technically incorrect and therefore "worse".


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Monday, May 27, 2019 14:56:03
    MvdV> "Totally"? As in EVERYTHING I mentioned is wrong?

    No, as in you used the wrong assumption (that everything was produced by the
    same program), which in turn led you to a lot of erroneous conclusions. Ending
    with:

    "That's where it goes wrong."




    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Kees van Eeten on Monday, May 27, 2019 14:35:31
    Hello Kees,

    On Monday May 27 2019 12:36, you wrote to Bjrn Felten:

    There have been times, when my stance was, that if my ASR33 does not
    support it, it is out of bounds. ;)

    Once. in a previous millennium I had the same attitude regarding Baudot code. Which is even more Spartanic than upper case ASCII.

    Others still have that stance, beit, that they converted to all Lowercase.

    Baudot code has only one case. Most machines using Baudot code display lower case.

    Morse code also has just one case. But unlike Baudot code, it is extendible and
    while in its orginal form it just had 26 letters, the digits 0-9 and a handfull special chaacters, later codes for accented and umlauted characters were added. The latest addition is .--.-. (@)


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Monday, May 27, 2019 14:55:16
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Monday May 27 2019 13:02, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> For starters, there is no indication in the file itself what
    MvdV>> character encoding is used.

    Of course not, it's a pure text file FFS! DUH!

    So how does:

    Well, if in doubt, there's always the actual Fidonews issue (FNEWTA21.ZIP) to rely on.

    help?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Monday, May 27, 2019 15:16:34
    MvdV> So how does:

    Well, if in doubt, there's always the actual Fidonews issue
    (FNEWTA21.ZIP) to rely on.

    MvdV> help?

    Help whom? You? Obviously not at all. Someone desperate to see Ward's apostrophises properly displayed, a wee bit I think.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Michiel van der Vlist on Monday, May 27, 2019 14:52:06
    Hello Michiel!

    27 May 19 14:29, you wrote to me:

    Those who are able to read UTF-8 encoded messages are free to do so in
    echo areas that promote that encoding. Publishing UTF-8 encoded
    messages in general areas like FIDONEWS, where UTF-8 readers are a
    minoriity, is even worse than mixing 8-bit encodings in one message.

    MvdV> That is a matter of opinion. As a techie I would say that mixing 8 bit
    MvdV> encodings in one and the same message or in one and the same file is
    MvdV> technically incorrect and therefore "worse".

    As a reader of messages, where my replacement system is not configured to
    the diverse World of encodings used, messages with messed up umlauted
    characters, are more readable, then UTF-8 encoded messages with a rich use
    of two byte characters.

    But by the time I get smapinntp and Thunderbird as well as my python reader
    properly installed, I will be OK again when I am nosy.

    Butt still, it are all kludges, that are far from the Holy Grail.

    Promoting UTF-8, where there are only poor kludges, is just as usefull as
    complaining that Fidonet has to modernize. It will not produce the
    software, that is needed. Toning down your expectations and writing
    example implementations brings far more.


    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Michiel van der Vlist on Monday, May 27, 2019 15:23:12
    Hello Michiel!

    27 May 19 14:35, you wrote to me:

    MvdV> Baudot code has only one case. Most machines using Baudot code display
    MvdV> lower case.

    It is some time ago, but in my memory all messages in the TELEX system were
    presented in Uppercase

    MvdV> Morse code also has just one case. But unlike Baudot code, it is
    MvdV> extendible and while in its orginal form it just had 26 letters, the
    MvdV> digits 0-9 and a handfull special chaacters, later codes for accented
    MvdV> and umlauted characters were added. The latest addition is .--.-. (@)

    The use of Morse is not practical in binary fixed word systems. It was
    born in a time, where bandwith was a liniting factor. Most computer
    encodings were born where memory/storage was a limiting factor.

    Extendible systems have administrative overhead.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Kees van Eeten on Monday, May 27, 2019 15:51:19
    It is some time ago, but in my memory all messages in the TELEX system were presented in Uppercase

    That however was totally dependant on the presentation layer. All telex machines that I have owned and operated did in fact write upper case symbols, but there may very well have been other machines that did not want their machines to shout at their readers. :)





    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Kees van Eeten on Monday, May 27, 2019 15:46:31
    Hello Kees,

    On Monday May 27 2019 15:23, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Morse code also has just one case. But unlike Baudot code, it
    MvdV>> is extendible and while in its orginal form it just had 26
    MvdV>> letters, the digits 0-9 and a handfull special chaacters, later
    MvdV>> codes for accented and umlauted characters were added. The
    MvdV>> latest addition is .--.-. (@)

    The use of Morse is not practical in binary fixed word systems.

    I was not advocating to use Morse code in Fidonet. Just presenting some background information.

    It was born in a time, where bandwith was a liniting factor. Most
    computer encodings were born where memory/storage was a limiting
    factor.

    It was born in a time when the only storage available was a human writing things down on a piece of paper end on/off was the only encoding available. "bandwith" was not an issue, the term was not even in use when Morse code was born. The early spark transmitters were ver wide band accoding to moden standards...

    Extendible systems have administrative overhead.

    UTF-8 is extendible...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Kees van Eeten on Monday, May 27, 2019 16:05:27
    Keesm

    MvdV> Baudot code has only one case. Most machines using Baudot code
    MvdV> display lower case.

    It is some time ago, but in my memory all messages in the TELEX system
    were presented in Uppercase

    You are confusing TELEGRAM with TELEX.

    Telegrams were printed in upper-case. Telex always has been lower-case.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Bj÷rn Felten on Monday, May 27, 2019 16:26:28
    Hello Bjrn!

    27 May 19 15:51, you wrote to me:

    It is some time ago, but in my memory all messages in the TELEX
    system were presented in Uppercase

    That however was totally dependant on the presentation layer. All telex machines that I have owned and operated did in fact write upper case symbols, but there may very well have been other machines that did not want their machines to shout at their readers. :)

    Well shouting was deminished by the poor quality of the copy, the person who
    had to take action, got.

    The project I did, started with a box, that was connected to a telex line,
    that box converter the message to ASCII RS232. or directly into EBCDIC and
    delivered at a virtual reader in VM/CMS. The messages were in IATA format with
    some additions to denile recipients.

    My software adapted the messages to PROFS and decided, wich PROFS users
    should receive the Telex messages.

    There was also a part that worked the otherway around. I.e from PROFS to
    telex. It was quite fun to build, especially as the addressing information
    of incominf telexes was typed by humans and delivery should be fail safe.

    Ofcourse the system became useless, when real e-mail became available.

    The project had a desissive influence on the work I did during the following
    years.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Michiel van der Vlist on Monday, May 27, 2019 16:36:16
    Hello Michiel!

    27 May 19 15:46, you wrote to me:

    MvdV> It was born in a time when the only storage available was a human
    MvdV> writing things down on a piece of paper end on/off was the only encoding
    MvdV> available. "bandwith" was not an issue, the term was not even in use
    MvdV> when Morse code was born. The early spark transmitters were ver wide
    MvdV> band accoding to moden standards...

    OK, you win I was thinking of the bitrate.

    Extendible systems have administrative overhead.

    MvdV> UTF-8 is extendible...

    Yes, there are administrative bits, that indicate the byte size.

    You will probably tell me it is a sparse table, where leading groups of
    8 zero's are redundant and omitted.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Ward Dossche on Monday, May 27, 2019 16:45:18
    Hello Ward!

    27 May 19 16:05, you wrote to me:

    It is some time ago, but in my memory all messages in the TELEX system
    were presented in Uppercase

    You are confusing TELEGRAM with TELEX.

    Telegrams were printed in upper-case. Telex always has been lower-case.

    You may be right, I have no examples laying around anymore.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Kees van Eeten on Monday, May 27, 2019 17:05:29
    Telegrams were printed in upper-case. Telex always has been lower-case.

    You may be right, I have no examples laying around anymore.

    I still have rolls upon rolls of old telexes somewhere around here. All in upper case. I have never seen a lower case telex. Maybe it was special to Sweden...?

    In various movies (e.g. Good Morning Vietnam) and TV shows depicting the time, telex printouts always seem to be upper case, so maybe it was special to the US as well?



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Ward Dossche on Tuesday, May 28, 2019 00:37:23
    Hi! Ward,

    On 27 May 19 16:05, you wrote to Kees van Eeten:

    It is some time ago, but in my memory all messages in the TELEX
    system were presented in Uppercase

    You are confusing TELEGRAM with TELEX.

    I think you are.

    Telegrams were printed in upper-case. Telex always has been
    lower-case.

    I think you are momentarily confused. I worked in an environment that used TELEX comms as an art form for 24 years, and they were all in uppercase. I can
    produce a .jpg copy of the NASA farewell telex to the Honeysuckle Creek Tracking mob as evidence.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... Objects in taglines are closer than they appear.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Paul Quinn on Monday, May 27, 2019 21:31:54
    Paul,

    Telegrams were printed in upper-case. Telex always has been
    lower-case.

    I think you are momentarily confused. I worked in an environment that
    used TELEX comms as an art form for 24 years, ...

    I worked for a few decades in an environment which actually ran the service, ran the exchanges, commercialized the teletypes and whatever.

    And I can send you jpg-s that I have.

    I am not excluding there were other switched non-public networks with teletype devices, but when you use the word "telex" then we are talking about the public
    switched network run by incumbent national operators following ITU-guidelines.

    You think not?

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)
  • From Paul Quinn@1:1/0 to Ward Dossche on Tuesday, May 28, 2019 08:44:58
    Hi! Ward,

    On 05/27/2019 09:31 PM, you wrote:

    You think not?

    I'm thinking we each have differing personal experiences. I'm out.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0
    * Origin: Gotta go... the orderlies are about to check my room! (3:640/1384.125)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Björn Felten on Tuesday, May 28, 2019 13:43:51
    On 28/05/2019 01:05, 2:203/2 wrote:
    Telegrams were printed in upper-case. Telex always has been
    lower-case.

    You may be right, I have no examples laying around anymore.

    I still have rolls upon rolls of old telexes somewhere around here. All in upper case. I have never seen a lower case telex. Maybe it was special to Sweden...?

    In various movies (e.g. Good Morning Vietnam) and TV shows depicting the time, telex printouts always seem to be upper case, so maybe it was special to the US as well?

    They were in upper case in New Zealand too, at least between '69 and '80 when I
    worked with the carrier there.

    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 09:32:42
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Monday May 27 2019 13:26, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> There is a large reservoir of potential contributors east of
    MvdV>> us. Who knows what will surface if you make it possible for
    MvdV>> them to write in their own native language, using their own
    MvdV>> native character set.

    Seriously? Can you see a number of Russian articles,

    You never know until you try.

    that only the Russians can read,

    Widen your horizon. You'd be surpised how many outside Russia can read Russian.
    And BTW, the use of Cyrillic is not limited to Russian. There are Cyrillic letters on the Euro bills. (FYI the Euro is the international currency used in most countries of the European Union.)

    in an international publication like the Fidonews? In any
    international echo for that matter?

    I wonder what your definition of "international" is. In my vocabulary it is something that crosses one or more borders. The high speed train from Amsterdam
    to Brussels is an international train. Crossing just one border makes it international.

    Another relevant notion is "global". Fidonet is a global network. It is not limited to some specific group of countries. Is Fidonews global? If it is English only, I'd say it is not global.

    AFAIK, they already have a Russian version -- just like e.g. Sweden
    had until our editor passed away.

    In the 90ties there was a Dutch version as well. "Nederlands Net Nieuws". It died when the number of readers and writers dropped below critical mass just before the turn of the century.

    AFAIK, there is a Z1 version too. "Fido Gazette" IIRC.

    Your point?

    Get real!

    I assure you I am a real human being. I am not a robot.

    No, dear readers, rest assured that as long as I am the editor, the Fidonews will remain English only. Using CP850.

    For decades you have been campaigning against the ASCII only rules in Fidonet. And rightly so. ASCII only was justified in the very early days when the hardware simply could not support more. But those days are long gone. There is no longer a technical reason for any ASCII only rule. So you can have your name
    spelled properly with an (o diaeresis) instead of just an o. Kudos fo you.

    But now you show your true colours. Now that you got /your/ name properly spelled, you stop. You want to replace the ASCII only rule by a CP850 only rule. There is no technical justification fo any CP850 ony rule.

    Shame on you!


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 10:29:09
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Monday May 27 2019 13:40, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> you have repeatedly stated that articles in other languages
    MvdV>> than English are welcome.

    (I missed this in my previous comment.)

    Repeatedly is not true.

    IIRC it was more than once.

    But when the zone wars ran at it's peak, I said at some point, that I
    was open for articles written in a non-English language just to watch
    the reaction.

    Alas, I don't remember if any of you who suggested this actually made
    such a contribution,

    I submitted at least one article in Dutch and it was accepted. (and it got us some flack from "across")

    So now you are telling met that you enticed me to throw oil on the fire of the zone war instead of just demonstrating that Fidonews need not be limited to English?

    but now that the zone wars are over and done with,

    Are you sure? Not so long ago we all thought the cold war was over. Now with megolomanic leaders in both the White House and the Kremlin, we know better. :(

    there's no need for such an experiment. Now we are (almost) all one
    big family, speaking the same language.

    "All speaking the same language"? You really live in a bubble. The assumption that everyone in Fidonet speaks English is simply wrong. In the haydays of Fdionet with 1200 Dutch nodes and 5500 registered Dutch points, there were many
    participants that never ventured into the so called "international" areas because their English was not good enough for that. From the few diehards that now remain in R28, nearly all of them probably speak English, but I would not be surprised if in Germany there is still a significant fraction of paticipants
    that have not enough English skills to participate in English echos. Same for Latin America. The ZC4 does not speak English... And then there is Eastern Europe...

    No, we may be one big family, or at least I'd would like it to be, but the assertion that we all speak the same language is plain wrong.

    I still prefer e.g. 'humour' over 'humor' though, but that's just me.
    8-)

    No, not just you. I too prefer "the Queens's English" despite the fact that I am not a royalist.

    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 11:13:47
    Michiel,

    From the few diehards that now remain in R28, nearly all of
    them probably speak English, but I would not be surprised if in Germany there is still a significant fraction of paticipants that have not enough English skills to participate in English echos. Same for Latin America.
    The ZC4 does not speak English... And then there is Eastern Europe...

    Plus, as you have pointed-out before, there is a difference between knowing a language as a native speaker and as a non-native speaker, a lot gets lost in translation sometimes. For example english-language jokes ... or when you carefully disect how David Rance expresses himself.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Ward Dossche on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 20:52:32
    Hi! Ward,

    On 29 May 19 11:13, you wrote to Michiel van der Vlist:

    jokes ... or when you carefully disect how David Rance expresses
    himself.

    Or when FLAK is mispelled. Or, was he really 'channelling' Roberta? Mmm.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... Operator, trace this call and tell me where I am.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:10:26
    Hello Michiel,

    MvdV>>> AFAIK, the only encoding in use in Fidonet that covers both
    MvdV>>> cyrillic and the 'o' diaeresis is UTF-8.

    I have the impression, that the majority that prefers Cyrrillic for
    their conversation, mainly use other encodings than UTF-8

    MvdV> I think your impression is correct. In the echos where Russian or Ukranian
    MvdV> is the dominant language, CP866 is the default character encoding. For
    MvdV> files they often use KOI8-r.

    CP866 is preferred by most Russians, but is not the only character
    set that can be used for cyrillic. There are also many other peoples
    who write with a cyrillic character set, so it is not exclusive.

    Those who are able to read UTF-8 encoded messages are free to do so in
    echo areas that promote that encoding. Publishing UTF-8 encoded
    messages in general areas like FIDONEWS, where UTF-8 readers are a
    minoriity, is even worse than mixing 8-bit encodings in one message.

    MvdV> That is a matter of opinion. As a techie I would say that mixing 8 bit
    MvdV> encodings in one and the same message or in one and the same file is
    MvdV> technically incorrect and therefore "worse".

    Could be. But when the original message is written with the
    same character set all should be well and good.

    --Lee

    --
    I Take A Sheet In The Pool

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:10:32
    Hello Michiel,

    There have been times, when my stance was, that if my ASR33 does not
    support it, it is out of bounds. ;)

    MvdV> Once. in a previous millennium I had the same attitude regarding Baudot
    MvdV> code. Which is even more Spartanic than upper case ASCII.

    It had to be, given the medium.

    Others still have that stance, beit, that they converted to all
    Lowercase.

    MvdV> Baudot code has only one case. Most machines using Baudot code display lower
    MvdV> case.

    The Baudot code is still common in the European telex system,
    which is why uppercase letters are allowed in the international
    telex network. That does not mean that lowercase letters
    cannot or should not be used. But it does make things a whole
    lot more practical.

    MvdV> Morse code also has just one case.

    Can you imagine exchanging messages in FidoNet using morse code
    rather than uppercase and lowercase letters in regular language?

    MvdV> But unlike Baudot code, it is extendible and while in its orginal form it
    MvdV> just had 26 letters, the digits 0-9 and a handfull special chaacters, later
    MvdV> codes for accented and umlauted characters were added. The latest addition
    MvdV> is .--.-. (@)

    For writing echomail it would be impractical.

    --Lee

    --
    Every Bottom Needs A Top

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:10:37
    Hello Bjrn,

    It is some time ago, but in my memory all messages in the TELEX
    system were presented in Uppercase

    That however was totally dependant on the presentation layer. All telex machines that I have owned and operated did in fact write upper case symbols, but there may very well have been other machines that did not
    want
    their machines to shout at their readers. :)

    The Baudot code is 5-digit code.
    64 possible character codes minus 2 shift characters.
    If both uppercase and lowercase were used, then it would
    take 52 possible digits - just enough to do the alphabet.

    5-digit numbers represent the same letters and numbers
    in the telex system.

    Since the Baudot code is still in common use in European
    telex systems, only uppercase letters are allowed in the
    international telex network.

    Which leads to ISO 646.

    I know, I know. What in blaze's hell ...

    ISO 7-bit coded character set.
    First edition in 1967.
    Specified 7-bit character code (ISO/IEC 646).

    Which brings you to -

    CP866 (under DOS to write cyrillic script)

    Telex only allows uppercase.

    --Lee

    --
    Erections, That's Our Game

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:10:42
    Hello Bjrn,

    Telegrams were printed in upper-case. Telex always has been
    lower-case.

    You may be right, I have no examples laying around anymore.

    I still have rolls upon rolls of old telexes somewhere around here. All in upper case. I have never seen a lower case telex. Maybe it was special to Sweden...?

    The Baudot code is still common in the European telex system, which
    is why only uppercase letters are allowed in the international telex
    system. However, that does not preclude telex systems outside the international telex system from using lowercase letters.

    In various movies (e.g. Good Morning Vietnam) and TV shows depicting the time, telex printouts always seem to be upper case, so maybe it was
    special
    to the US as well?

    Telex printouts have always been uppercase in newspapers and radio
    in the US. Hollywood may be different, where anything goes.

    --Lee

    --
    Our Nuts, Your Mouth

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Kees van Eeten on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:10:47
    Hello Kees,

    It is some time ago, but in my memory all messages in the TELEX system
    were presented in Uppercase

    You are confusing TELEGRAM with TELEX.

    Telegrams were printed in upper-case. Telex always has been lower-case.

    You may be right, I have no examples laying around anymore.

    Telex still comes in uppercase.

    If you have doubts, just visit your local newspaper.
    Or university (communications department).

    --Lee

    --
    Get Her Wet Here

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Paul Quinn on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:10:52
    Hello Paul,

    It is some time ago, but in my memory all messages in the TELEX
    system were presented in Uppercase

    You are confusing TELEGRAM with TELEX.

    I think you are.

    Although using uppercase in telegram is a matter of style, using
    uppercase in telex is a must in the international telex network.

    Telegrams were printed in upper-case. Telex always has been
    lower-case.

    I think you are momentarily confused.

    Telegrams were printed in uppercase due to style and tradition.
    Telex can be lowercase, but must be uppercase in the international
    telex network.

    I worked in an environment that used TELEX comms as an art form for 24 years, and they were all in uppercase.

    The Baudot code is still common in European telex systems, which
    is why only uppercase letters are allowed in the international telex
    network.

    I can produce a .jpg copy of the NASA farewell telex to the Honeysuckle Creek Tracking mob as evidence.

    Reporters and journalists from around the world also read
    it in uppercase, not just scientists and engineers ...

    --Lee

    --
    Nobody Beats Our Meat

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:10:57
    Hello Ward,

    Telegrams were printed in upper-case. Telex always has been
    lower-case.

    I think you are momentarily confused. I worked in an environment that
    used TELEX comms as an art form for 24 years, ...

    I worked for a few decades in an environment which actually ran the
    service,
    ran the exchanges, commercialized the teletypes and whatever.

    And I can send you jpg-s that I have.

    I am not excluding there were other switched non-public networks with teletype devices, but when you use the word "telex" then we are talking about the public switched network run by incumbent national operators following ITU-guidelines.

    You think not?

    I know not.

    Telex is 5-digit code.
    62 possible character codes minus 2 shift characters.
    This is known as the Baudot code.
    Still commonly used in the European telex system.
    Which is why only *uppercase* letters are allowed
    in the international telex network.

    Oh, I love it when the former president of Greenpeace is busted. :)

    --Lee (I still have my press credentials)

    --
    Often Licked, Never Beaten

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:11:17
    Hello Bjrn,

    MvdV>> I noticed that as well. Our estimed Fidonews editor has patched the
    MvdV>> software to accept non-ASCII characters but he has neglected to
    specify
    MvdV>> the encoding for submitted articles, From what I gleen the article
    was
    MvdV>> submitted using CP1252 Aka Centraal-Europees Windows. The articles
    are
    MvdV>> published with a "CHRS 850 2" kludge.

    MvdV>> That's where it goes wrong.

    Oh, BTW, your analysis is totally wrong.

    Is it?

    There are two programs involved here. The first is MAKENEWS.EXE that I indeed patched even before I became editor -- in October 2001 to be exact.

    Frank Vest was editor at the time.

    This is the program that produces the actual Fidonews.

    Which had been in use for some time.

    For obvious reasons there are no kludges involved here, and neither are there any in the pure text files of the submitted articles.

    Nobody saw a real need, so nothing was done to update the file.

    The second program is the NEWSPREP program that posts the Fidonews in this and another related echo. I don't have to patch it, because I have the source code.

    With these two files the FidoNews can be published in its current
    form. What is the problem publishing articles written in cyrillic?

    And I did make a change in it a decade or so ago, to go for "CHRS 850 2".
    It
    was on your request, so that your copyright symbol would show properly...

    How inclusive should the FidoNews be? Should the FidoNews look
    backward, by resorting to "7 bit pure ASCII only"? Or forward, to
    include anything and everything under the sun?

    The world speaks many languages. Not English only.

    --Lee

    --
    As Good As It Looks

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:11:22
    Hello Bjrn,

    MvdV>> I suggest the editor accepts only articles encoded in UTF-8 and
    MvdV>> patches his software to use a "CHRS UTF-8 4" kludge.

    Yeah, right. That would surely increase the number of contributions.

    The only condition now is for individuals to write articles
    encoded in UTF-8, regardless of language? If so, then how long
    will it take all those articles written in cyrillic to arrive
    in Sweden? I hear cybertravel is really fast ...

    --Lee

    --
    Stop Workin', Start Jerkin'

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:11:27
    Hello Bjrn,

    No, 7 bit pure ASCII only, would be less complex.

    You can please some of the people all of the time.
    You can please all of the people some of the time.
    But you can't please all the people all of the time.

    -- Originally by poet John Lydgate,
    made famous by Abraham Lincoln.

    "Donald Trump is the greatest president since Abraham Lincoln!"
    ~ Jon Voigt, actor (and father of Angelie Jolie)

    --Lee

    --
    Nobody Beats Our Meat

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Kees van Eeten on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:11:32
    Hello Kees,

    MvdV>> I suggest the editor accepts only articles encoded in UTF-8 and
    patches
    MvdV>> his software to use a "CHRS UTF-8 4" kludge.

    No, 7 bit pure ASCII only, would be less complex.

    That would make Donald Trump happy.
    Even though he can't write.

    --Lee

    --
    It Ain't Payday If It Ain't Nuts In Your Mouth

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:11:37
    Hello Michiel,

    MvdV>>> I suggest the editor accepts only articles encoded in UTF-8 and
    MvdV>>> patches his software to use a "CHRS UTF-8 4" kludge.

    No, 7 bit pure ASCII only, would be less complex.

    MvdV> For the ASCII only, English only community: Agreed.

    The editor has taken a step much farther, by insisting
    on English-only. Even though his native language is Swedish.
    IOW, the editor of the FidoNews has gone totally MAGA.

    MvdV> However... the editor has rebelled against the dominant ASCII only/English
    MvdV> only culture in Fiodonet for decades and has repeatedly stated that
    MvdV> articles in other languages are welcome. He has also been bragging that his
    MvdV> software "has been patched for"/"is capable of" dealing with non-ASCII
    MvdV> characters.

    Only because the editor wants everybody to spell is "" correctly.

    MvdV> Considering that these days most messages in Fiodonet are written in
    MvdV> Cyrillic, one would expect that articles written in an encoding that covers
    MvdV> Cyrillic are accepted.

    I have a very dated e-reader that correctly displays cyrillic.
    I can even use it to write in cyrillic. The software is as primitive
    as the device. And to think I can do all this in text format.

    MvdV> Also considering that the editor has been making an issue of the correct
    MvdV> spelling of his first name for decades, one would expect that articles
    MvdV> written in an encoding that covers the 'o' diaeresis are also accepted.

    Since the editor has no problem with those who spell his name
    correctly, our Russian friends should have no problem telling their
    own stories in their own native tongue.

    MvdV> AFAIK, the only encoding in use in Fidonet that covers both cyrillic and
    the
    MvdV> 'o' diaeresis is UTF-8.

    There you have it. The editor has no choice, as he is out of excuses.

    --Lee

    --
    Get Her Wet Here

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:11:42
    Hello Bjrn,

    MvdV>> you have repeatedly stated that articles in other languages than
    MvdV>> English are welcome.

    (I missed this in my previous comment.)

    Repeatedly is not true. But when the zone wars ran at it's peak, I said at some point, that I was open for articles written in a non-English language just to watch the reaction.

    There are no zone wars. There never were, if you think about it.
    Just one sysop gone amuk. Totally harmless. And still welcome to
    continue participating in FidoNet.

    Alas, I don't remember if any of you who suggested this actually made such
    a
    contribution,

    Michiel van der Vlist and Ward Dossche both contributed articles,
    in their own language of choice. I had thought about doing the same,
    and should have.

    but now that the zone wars are over and done with,

    There are no zone wars, and never were.

    there's no need for such an experiment.

    Individuals are free to contribute articles in the language of their
    own choice. Your job as editor does not include censorship.

    Now we are (almost) all one big family, speaking the same language.

    My native language is Cajun French. In kindergarten I had no
    choice but to communicate in Cajun French, as the teacher and my
    classmates also only spoke Cajun French. You would have been
    totally lost had you been there, the only kindergartner speaking
    Swedish.

    I still prefer e.g. 'humour' over 'humor' though, but that's just me. 8-)

    You are truly blessed The Orange One cannot write.

    --Lee

    --
    We're Great In Bed

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:11:47
    Hello Bjrn,

    MvdV>> There is a large reservoir of potential contributors east of us. Who
    MvdV>> knows what will surface if you make it possible for them to write in
    MvdV>> their own native language, using their own native character set.

    Seriously? Can you see a number of Russian articles, that only the
    Russians
    can read, in an international publication like the Fidonews? In any international echo for that matter?

    Why would that be a problem?

    AFAIK, they already have a Russian version -- just like e.g. Sweden had until our editor passed away.

    Limiting FidoNet to English only is a problem that needs
    correcting. Same as limiting FidoNet to Swedish only would be.
    Or any other language. So why keep doing the same stupid thing?

    Get real!

    The US has no official language. In Louisiana, I can insist on
    using French as my native tongue in court of law, including to sign
    legal documents. Why would an editor of the FidoNews want to limit
    articles to be written in English? Or for contributors in this
    echo to limit their rantings in English? Certainly that makes no
    sense. No sense at all.

    No, dear readers, rest assured that as long as I am the editor, the
    Fidonews
    will remain English only. Using CP850.

    The editor of the FidoNews has gone MAGA ...

    --Lee

    --
    As Good As It Looks

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:11:52
    Hello Michiel,

    MvdV>>> I suggest the editor accepts only articles encoded in UTF-8 and
    MvdV>>> patches his software to use a "CHRS UTF-8 4" kludge.

    Yeah, right. That would surely increase the number of
    contributions.

    MvdV> You never know until you try.

    The e-reader I prefer to use has no problem displaying text
    in multiple formats, in several languages, including Russian.
    The software is primitive, with no bells and whistles. Not
    only can I read texts, but I can also write in my language
    of choice (of those supported by the e-reader).

    If the editor claims he is not able or willing to publish
    anything written in cyrillic, I suggest this community hires
    an associate editor who will.

    MvdV> You have rebelled againt the ASCII only/English only culture in Fidonet for
    MvdV> decades and you have repeatedly stated that articles in other languages
    MvdV> than English are welcome.

    Articles written in languages other than English have been
    published in the FidoNews. And do give credit to previous
    editors, such as Frank Vest, who also were willing to do
    the same.

    MvdV> There is a large reservoir of potential contributors east of us.

    Learning cyrillic is one thing, but mandarin is quite another.

    MvdV> Who knows what will surface if you make it possible for them to write in
    MvdV> their own native language, using their own native character set.

    The land of the rising sun has its own special character set ...

    --Lee

    --
    Get Her Wet Here

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:11:58
    Hello Michiel,

    MvdV>>> AFAIK, the only encoding in use in Fidonet that covers both
    MvdV>>> cyrillic and the 'o' diaeresis is UTF-8.

    I have the impression, that the majority that prefers Cyrrillic for
    their conversation, mainly use other encodings than UTF-8

    MvdV> I think your impression is correct. In the echos where Russian or Ukranian
    MvdV> is the dominant language, CP866 is the default character encoding. For
    MvdV> files they often use KOI8-r.

    For articles published in the FidoNews that is not the problem.
    It is the editor's refusal to allow articles not in English.
    Although he has made exceptions, such as some written in Dutch.

    Those who are able to read UTF-8 encoded messages are free to do so in
    echo areas that promote that encoding. Publishing UTF-8 encoded
    messages in general areas like FIDONEWS, where UTF-8 readers are a
    minoriity, is even worse than mixing 8-bit encodings in one message.

    MvdV> That is a matter of opinion. As a techie I would say that mixing 8 bit
    MvdV> encodings in one and the same message or in one and the same file is
    MvdV> technically incorrect and therefore "worse".

    The editor's aversion to 7-bit rather than 8-bit is understandable,
    as he is neither an Englishman nor an American. But then, the same
    can be said of most FidoNetters. So why the insistence on English
    only?

    The US does not have an official language. Why should FidoNet?

    Just because a small handful of English-speaking people from the
    US started FidoNet does not mean that everybody else has to follow
    suit.

    In Louisiana, French-speaking people were the first to arrive.
    Aside from the natives who were already there. Today, the majority
    of the population in Louisiana speaks English, with very few who
    speak Cajun French. And even fewer who speak native tongues.

    The editor of the FidoNews should reconsider his position.

    If not, this community should resort to the alternative -

    This community should hire an associate editor who is willing
    and capable of taking on the responsibilities of handling non-English
    articles.

    Once this has been accomplished, then it will be up to the writers
    to give the newly-hired associate editor something to do. With all
    languages welcome.

    --Lee

    --
    Stop Workin', Start Jerkin'

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Paul Quinn on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:58:59
    Paul,

    jokes ... or when you carefully disect how David Rance expresses
    himself.

    Or when FLAK is mispelled. Or, was he really 'channelling' Roberta?
    Mmm.

    Roberta Flack, the singer, or Roberta Flak ... that SS woman ?

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Lee Lofaso on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 14:43:23
    Hello Lee,

    On Wednesday May 29 2019 14:10, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Baudot code has only one case. Most machines using Baudot code
    MvdV>> display lower case.

    The Baudot code is still common in the European telex system,

    The European telex system is history. In The Netherlands the plug was pulled in
    2007.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Lee Lofaso on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 22:46:27
    Hi! Lee,

    On 29 May 19 14:10, you wrote to me:

    You are confusing TELEGRAM with TELEX.
    I think you are.

    Although using uppercase in telegram is a matter of style, using
    uppercase in telex is a must in the international telex network.

    I'm starting to think there may have been different ITU-Ts at various times past, or different ITU-Ts for each as-yet-unformed-Fidonet zone. I've looked at some guidelines that uncle Google recommended (about six until I gave up), and all the 'letter case' rules and examples are in uppercase ASCII.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... Knock firmly but softly. I like soft firm knockers.
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 18:38:27
    Hello Ward,

    jokes ... or when you carefully disect how David Rance expresses
    himself.

    Or when FLAK is mispelled. Or, was he really 'channelling' Roberta?
    Mmm.

    Roberta Flack, the singer, or Roberta Flak ... that SS woman ?

    Muscles.

    --Lee

    --
    Laying Pipe Since '88

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 18:38:33
    Hello Michiel,

    MvdV>>> Baudot code has only one case. Most machines using Baudot code
    MvdV>>> display lower case.

    The Baudot code is still common in the European telex system,

    MvdV> The European telex system is history. In The Netherlands the plug was pulled
    MvdV> in 2007.

    My days in radio and newspapers were in the 1970s and 80s.
    Gosh. I'm getting old ...

    --Lee

    --
    I Take A Sheet In The Pool

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Paul Quinn on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 18:38:42
    Hello Paul,

    You are confusing TELEGRAM with TELEX.
    I think you are.

    Although using uppercase in telegram is a matter of style, using
    uppercase in telex is a must in the international telex network.

    I'm starting to think there may have been different ITU-Ts at various
    times
    past, or different ITU-Ts for each as-yet-unformed-Fidonet zone. I've looked at some guidelines that uncle Google recommended (about six until I gave up), and all the 'letter case' rules and examples are in uppercase ASCII.

    Now I know why Marconi typed all his code in uppercase.

    --Lee

    --
    We Put Big Loads In Tight Places

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to BJƒRN FELTEN on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 16:26:26
    It is some time ago, but in my memory all messages in the
    TELEX system
    were presented in Uppercase

    That however was totally dependant on the presentation layer. All
    telex
    machines that I have owned and operated did in fact write upper case
    symbols,
    but there may very well have been other machines that did not want
    their
    machines to shout at their readers. :)

    I learned to type on a TeleType Model 28, it used a 5 bit character set
    called the 'Baudot code.' Caps only, the 'upper case' characters were
    the numbers 0-9, punctuation marks and special characters. I presume
    that the TeleType Model 28 and the 'Telex' you refer to are analogous
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to BJƒRN FELTEN on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 16:28:38
    Telegrams were printed in upper-case. Telex always has been
    lower-case.

    You may be right, I have no examples laying around anymore.

    I still have rolls upon rolls of old telexes somewhere around
    here. All in
    upper case. I have never seen a lower case telex. Maybe it was
    special to
    Sweden...?

    In various movies (e.g. Good Morning Vietnam) and TV shows
    depicting the
    time, telex printouts always seem to be upper case, so maybe it was
    special to
    the US as well?

    There was also some pretty good drawing done with Teletype characters. Somewhere around my place I have a picture of John F Kennedy rendered
    by a Model 28 Teletype - and the paper tape that printed the picture
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From Paul Quinn@3:640/1384 to Ward Dossche on Thursday, May 30, 2019 09:05:36
    Hi! Ward,

    On 29 May 19 14:58, you wrote to me:

    jokes ... or when you carefully disect how David Rance
    expresses himself.

    Or when FLAK is mispelled. Or, was he really 'channelling'
    Roberta? Mmm.

    Roberta Flack, the singer, or Roberta Flak ... that SS woman ?

    Frankly, my dear fellow, I don't give a damn for either.

    Cheers,
    Paul.

    ... Magic Elmer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arkda5FtbcI
    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20130515
    * Origin: Quinn's Rock - Live from Paul's Xubuntu desktop! (3:640/1384)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Lee Lofaso on Thursday, May 30, 2019 10:59:52
    On 29/05/2019 22:11, 2:203/2 wrote:

    AFAIK, they already have a Russian version -- just like e.g. Sweden had
    until our editor passed away.

    Limiting FidoNet to English only is a problem that needs
    correcting. Same as limiting FidoNet to Swedish only would be.
    Or any other language. So why keep doing the same stupid thing?

    If you were the editor of the Snooze, how would you edit an article I submitted
    written in Maori (supposing that I could include all of the character accents)? Are you fluent enough in that written language to edit it?

    Would you do any better if it was written in Ukrainian?

    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Paul Quinn on Thursday, May 30, 2019 20:01:14
    Hello Paul,

    jokes ... or when you carefully disect how David Rance
    expresses himself.

    Or when FLAK is mispelled. Or, was he really 'channelling'
    Roberta? Mmm.

    Roberta Flack, the singer, or Roberta Flak ... that SS woman ?

    Frankly, my dear fellow, I don't give a damn for either.

    How many kids did Scarlett O'Hara have?

    --Lee

    --
    Change Is Cumming

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to David Drummond on Thursday, May 30, 2019 20:01:20
    Hello David,

    AFAIK, they already have a Russian version -- just like e.g. BF>Sweden
    had until our editor passed away.

    Limiting FidoNet to English only is a problem that needs
    correcting. Same as limiting FidoNet to Swedish only would be.
    Or any other language. So why keep doing the same stupid thing?

    If you were the editor of the Snooze, how would you edit an article I submitted written in Maori (supposing that I could include all of the character accents)?

    Very carefully.

    Are you fluent enough in that written language to edit it?

    That's what associate editors are for.

    Would you do any better if it was written in Ukrainian?

    Never underestimate the competence of associate editors ...

    --Lee

    --
    Your Hole Is Our Goal

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Tuesday, May 28, 2019 10:54:39
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Monday May 27 2019 12:43, you wrote to mark lewis:

    But you are right, it was a handful of apostrophises that caused all
    this brouhaha.

    "Brouhaha"?

    As opposed to the two decades of brouhaha that you have raised over two dots over the letter 'o'?

    Ah well, CP 850 is the primary code page and default OEM code page
    in many countries,

    For DOS. Many Winodows applications default to CP1252 AKA "Windows Western". AKA "ANSI Latin 1" and my guess is that is exactly what happened with Ward's article. CP 1252 has three different characters that look like the ASCII apostrophe character "'". (0X27). In CP1252 there is also the leading single quote character (0X91) and the closing single quote character (0X92).

    My guess is that Ward used a "smart" Windows editor that translated the apostrophe character into the closing single quote character. (0X92) Most likely this was unintentional and he was unaware of it.

    Actually CP1252 is not such a bad choice. (For those in the western world that want to stick to single byte encoding.) Except for the characters in the range 0X80-0x9F it is the same as Latin-1 which is popular with the Linux gang. In Latin 1 0X80-0X9F are control characters, in CP1252 they are printable character. With among them the EURO sign. Very nice for the Euro lovers. (Yeah,
    I know, you are not one of them).

    https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows-1252

    So I think I'll stick to CP 850 when posting the Fidonews in the echoes. Any objections, save from the UTF-8 fanatics?

    It would seem I am disqualified from objecting. So let me add this:

    If CP850 is the "Fidonews character set", you should mention this in an updated
    version of ARTSPEC.DOS and in the Fidonews epilog.

    Also you should have rejected Ward's article as it is not in CP850. You recently stated that processing of articles is not automatic, so don't give us that excuse. You claim you actually do "editing". So you should have noticed the deviation and "edited" it.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tuesday, May 28, 2019 13:08:03
    MvdV> "Brouhaha"?

    MvdV> As opposed to the two decades of brouhaha that you have raised over two
    MvdV> dots over the letter 'o'?

    Can you verify that? All I've ever said is that I appreciate the effort it takes to get my name correctly spelled in some countries -- and I highly respect those that do.

    Ah well, CP 850 is the primary code page and default OEM code page
    in many countries,

    MvdV> For DOS.

    In case you didn't know it, Fidonet is and has always been a DOS based network. All you have to do is look at all the eight bit structures of all our definitions. Ever since we got 16-bit and then 32 and now 64-bit systems, I've been fighting with stuff like big vs. little endians and similar, I happen to know.





    ..

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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tuesday, May 28, 2019 12:59:56
    My guess is that Ward used a "smart" Windows editor that translated the apostrophe character into the closing single quote character. (0X92)
    Most likely this was unintentional and he was unaware of it.

    Correct.

    \%/@rd

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  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Tuesday, May 28, 2019 23:00:48
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Tuesday May 28 2019 13:08, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> As opposed to the two decades of brouhaha that you have raised
    MvdV>> over two dots over the letter 'o'?

    Can you verify that? All I've ever said is that I appreciate the
    effort it takes to get my name correctly spelled in some countries --
    and I highly respect those that do.

    But you won't retuen the favour.

    Ah well, CP 850 is the primary code page and default OEM code
    page in many countries,

    MvdV>> For DOS.

    In case you didn't know it, Fidonet is and has always been a DOS
    based network.

    Not any more. Systen running on pure DOS are the rare exceptions these days. The vast majority runs on Windows or Linux. A minority on OS/2.

    All you have to do is look at all the eight bit structures of all our definitions. Ever since we got 16-bit

    You may have forgotten, but Fidonet started on 16 bit systems. AFAIK no Fidonet
    mailer ever ran on an 8 bit system.

    FWIW I once considered writing a Fidonet mailer for my 8 bit 6808 Flex system. The show stopper was that ARC was a bridge too far for it.

    and then 32 and now 64-bit systems, I've been fighting with stuff like
    big vs. little endians and similar, I happen to know.

    Your point?


    Cheers, Michiel

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