• FidoNews 36:21 [01/07]: General Articles.

    From Henri Derksen@2:280/1208 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 22:53:00
    Hello Michiel,

    Ah well, CP 850 is the primary code page and default OEM code
    page in many countries,

    MvdV>>> For DOS.

    In case you didn't know it, Fidonet is and has always been a DOS
    based network.

    MvdV> Not any more.
    MvdV> Systen running on pure DOS are the rare exceptions these days.

    Mine for instance ;-).

    MvdV> The vast majority runs on Windows or Linux. A minority on OS/2.

    All you have to do is look at all the eight bit structures of all our
    definitions. Ever since we got 16-bit

    MvdV> You may have forgotten, but Fidonet started on 16 bit systems. AFAIK no MvdV> Fidonet mailer ever ran on an 8 bit system.

    That is not completely sure.
    Some guys of our othernet AcoNet wrote FTN BBCscan software for the 8 bit
    Acorn BBC B computers to communicatie with FidoNet systems.
    That was at the end of the 80's start of the 90's.

    MvdV> FWIW I once considered writing a Fidonet mailer for my 8 bit 6808 Flex MvdV> system. The show stopper was that ARC was a bridge too far for it.

    We had a ARC routine for the Acorn BBC B.
    Ask Simon Voortman about it.

    and then 32 and now 64-bit systems, I've been fighting with stuff like BF>> big vs. little endians and similar, I happen to know.

    I have heard that terms before, and I neither understood it.

    Henri.

    ---
    * Origin: Computing Apart Together (2:280/1208)
  • From Henri Derksen@2:280/1208 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 22:55:00
    Hello Michiel,

    At this moment I donot like the UTF 8 circus.

    MvdV> Well, I don't like the Tower of Bable circus with Code Pages.

    Me neither.
    The complex use of apostrophes etc is only a way to distinguish from other languages, and nothing more.

    Mvdv> So what we have in common is that we have something we do not like.

    Yes because not al my systems can display all kinds of code pages.
    I have at least 3 different ones.
    First I have the UniCorn BBS system at Dos 5 with CP437
    Second I have all the RISC OS machines (RiscPC's, Pi's) using Latin 1.
    And third the Raspbian Stretch Linux at several other Raspberry Pi's.
    The last one can both Latin 1 and UTF8 If I am right.
    When I collect some text from a website, I can only save that textfile
    If I choose UTF8. Whith the Default Latin 1 the saving gives an error,
    and won't save the textfile at all ;-(.

    So if contributing FidoNews is restricted to UTF8 only, it will sure
    decrease your input.

    MvdV> So simple submit your contribution in ASCII only. ASCII is a subset of MvdV> UTF-8, so it will be accepted.

    Ok, thanks for the explanation.

    MvdV> Just help me refresh my memory: how many article did you submit so far?

    Sorry, but that is zero.
    All others have found out and written what I wanted to know.
    I donot have new idea's, nowbody else had.
    Ofcourse I sometimes read interesting articles, from you for instance.
    So in this case I did not have input for so far.
    Besides that, I am also busy with other volunteer work and have to organise my energy for several projects properly as a multi handicapped person, you know. My time is not so much as other normal healthy people, from the same age,
    or even much older ones have more energy than me.
    But you never know if I once see an opportuinity to create input.
    If there is still a FidoNews letter, I will then contribute it.

    Henri.

    ---
    * Origin: Computing Apart Together (2:280/1208)
  • From Henri Derksen@2:280/1208 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wednesday, May 29, 2019 23:00:00
    Hello Michiel,

    MvdV> "All speaking the same language"? You really live in a bubble. The
    MvdV> assumption that everyone in Fidonet speaks English is simply wrong. In MvdV> the haydays of Fdionet with 1200 Dutch nodes and 5500 registered Dutch MvdV> points, there were many participants that never ventured into the so MvdV> called "international" areas because their English was not good enough MvdV> for that. From the few diehards that now remain in R28, nearly all of MvdV> them probably speak English, but I would not be surprised if in Germany MvdV> there is still a significant fraction of paticipants that have not
    MvdV> enough English skills to participate in English echos. Same for Latin MvdV> America. The ZC4 does not speak English... And then there is Eastern MvdV> Europe...

    You forget France.
    Until not so long ago, many French people did not speak English,
    and only some German, i.e. a long side the German border.
    The other bad situation was and still is in the Fench part of Belgium.
    Even if they understand Dutch, i.e. besides the border,
    they almost allways answer in French,
    that is a kind of "tick" between their ears ;-(.
    When still keeping doing that, it will kill good nabourship.
    Of course they can speak Dutch, but they allways try French first,
    even if you ask somthing in Dutch or Englisch.
    I call that "stronteigenwijs".
    In the long term they are the loosers, and we go elswhere.
    Mostly the Dutch will try to participate, but there is a lmit in doing so.
    And that French speaking Belgians are trying that to the limit,
    especially the old ones.
    The English part on French websites is very small compared to the original French part of it, which I hardly understand.
    You know for (very) hard of hearing people like me, learning foreign
    languages is more than a double handicap.
    In that case I am a little jalous at the EU man Frans Timmermans who speaks
    at least 7 languages if I am right.
    The Germans are much better in speaking and writing English I have remarked.
    In the long term the Englisch speaking part will grow much in more countries. When you ask information about the right route on roads in Amsterdam
    you have 50 % chance to get an answer in Englisch, I was supprised too some years back. Now I know it, I am prepared.

    MvdV> No, we may be one big family, or at least I'd would like it to be, but MvdV> the assertion that we all speak the same language is plain wrong.

    That may be, but someone at the TV has explained why in the long run the differences in languages will go away.
    You already see it at universities here in The Netherlands.
    Many studies are only available in Englisch, not even in Dutch any more.
    Even for the Master Study of Dutch, there is a significant declining in students. Some weeks ago someone warned us for that.
    The same will happen in Friesland in future.
    Learning a local language only a small part speaks, is a kind of waste of energy. In the same time you could study Englisch, German, Spanisch or French to widen your horizon. You do the same to commnucate with many Russians.
    There are also Russians who write perfectly Englisch, even if it is not
    their native language.

    I still prefer e.g. 'humour' over 'humor' though, but that's just me.
    8-)

    MvdV> No, not just you. I too prefer "the Queens's English"

    Yes me too like much more UK Englisch, than the USA version.
    The same goes for Germany, I like much more "Hoch Deutch" in stead of all the other local versions.
    Why? Because your radius is much higher, i.e. more people will understand you. And sure my Englisch is not perfect, the same for my German.
    Unluckily I did not have the energy to studt French, I know only a little words
    taken in 3 years at school. I only did axamination in Dutch Englisch and German. Of course Dutch was the best, Englisch second and German third.

    MvdV> despite the fact that I am not a royalist.

    That's a different story.

    O, and besides; I live in The Netherlands, not in Holland.
    I donot like Dutch firms writing Holland on their truck,
    even if they resides in one of the other provinces.
    Holland is only the north and south side of the west of NL as you know.
    You donot live in Holland either, and as for me it is the same ;-).
    So let us all write The Netherlands in stead of Holland.
    Good luck.

    Henri.

    ---
    * Origin: Computing Apart Together (2:280/1208)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Henri Derksen on Thursday, May 30, 2019 07:14:44
    MvdV>> You may have forgotten, but Fidonet started on 16 bit systems.
    MvdV>> AFAIK no Fidonet mailer ever ran on an 8 bit system.

    That is not completely sure.

    Of course it isn't.

    If it was, no mailer did ever run on an original IBM PC, but I seem to recall that it was quite a popular computer in the early Fidonet years (mine included).

    And I've patched quite a few abandonware FTN programs in my days using the 8-bit DOS program DEBUG.COM to know for sure.

    ..

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  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Henri Derksen on Thursday, May 30, 2019 09:17:41
    Hello Henri,

    On Wednesday May 29 2019 22:53, you wrote to me:

    In case you didn't know it, Fidonet is and has always been a DOS
    based network.

    MvdV>> Not any more.
    MvdV>> Systen running on pure DOS are the rare exceptions these days.

    Mine for instance ;-).

    Wrong tense. Your DOS FrontDoor system /was/ one of the rare exceptions. It is no longer operational. It may have been the last of the Mohikans. ;-)

    MvdV>> AFAIK no Fidonet mailer ever ran on an 8 bit system.

    That is not completely sure.

    Note the "AFAIK".

    Some guys of our othernet AcoNet wrote FTN BBCscan software for the 8
    bit Acorn BBC B computers to communicatie with FidoNet systems.

    I too wrote software for my 8 bit Flex system to "communicate with Fidonet systems". I could use it to read and write messages posted on BBS's participating in Fidonet. But it was not a Fidonet mailer. It could not do FTS-1.

    That was at the end of the 80's start of the 90's.

    If that Acorn BBS system was really a Fidonet system, what was its node number and in which period was it in the Fidonet nodelist?

    and then 32 and now 64-bit systems, I've been fighting with stuff
    like big vs. little endians and similar, I happen to know.

    I have heard that terms before, and I neither understood it.

    Then I will refrain from trying to explain, it is not relevant for the discussion at hand. It was just a smoke screen.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Henri Derksen on Thursday, May 30, 2019 09:29:45
    Hello Henri,

    On Wednesday May 29 2019 23:00, you wrote to me:

    Hello Michiel,

    MvdV>> "All speaking the same language"? You really live in a bubble.
    MvdV>> The assumption that everyone in Fidonet speaks English is simply
    MvdV>> wrong.

    [..]

    You forget France.

    We were discussing the "Family of Fidonet". Tha last French node left Fidonet ages ago. Same for Wallonia. Nol longer present in Fidonet. Alas.

    MvdV>> No, we may be one big family, or at least I'd would like it to
    MvdV>> be, but the assertion that we all speak the same language is
    MvdV>> plain wrong.

    That may be, but someone at the TV has explained why in the long run
    the differences in languages will go away.

    "Someone at the TV"... Someone on TV said it, so it must be true? Oh, c'mon..

    You already see it at universities here in The Netherlands. Many
    studies are only available in Englisch, not even in Dutch any more.

    Be that as it may be. The Dutch language won't go away juat like that. And neither will Frisian, Suid Afrikaans or any of the hundreds of languages that are native to less than 25 million people.

    We are a VERY long way from one world language and if it ever comes to that, it
    may not or even probably will not be English.

    Even for the Master Study of Dutch, there is a significant declining
    in students. Some weeks ago someone warned us for that. The same will happen in Friesland in future. Learning a local language only a small
    part speaks, is a kind of waste of energy.

    I agree. Here in Fidonet I am often told: "if we had not... You would be speaking German|Russian." I doubt that is true, but even if it were, they did not do me a favour. I am not at all happy to be saddled with a native language that is understood by at best 1% of the world population and spoken by even less. But that is how it is. The twor of Bable is not going away in mt lifetime.

    In the same time you could study Englisch, German, Spanisch or French
    to widen your horizon. You do the same to commnucate with many
    Russians. There are also Russians who write perfectly Englisch, even
    if it is not their native language.

    Yes, there are those. But they are a minority.


    Cheers, Michiel

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    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Henri Derksen on Thursday, May 30, 2019 10:01:43
    Hello Henri,

    On Wednesday May 29 2019 22:55, you wrote to me:

    At this moment I donot like the UTF 8 circus.

    "Onbekend maakt onbemind".

    The complex use of apostrophes etc is only a way to distinguish from
    other languages, and nothing more.

    While in some languagas the use of accents, umlauts, tremas and other diacritics may be purely cosmetic in some cases, in others they are essential to properly convey the meaning or indicate the pronunciation.

    In Dutch the accents and tremas are essential. "Een" and "n" mean different things. "Roel" and "Rol" are not the same person.

    And than of course there are languages with a completely different alfabet, Greek and Russian come to mind.

    Bjrn is right. The 26 letters of the ASCII character set are not enough to properly express oneself in writing. Even for the Brittish it is not enough . No pound sign '' in ASCII...

    Mvdv>> So what we have in common is that we have something we do not
    Mvdv>> like.

    Yes because not al my systems can display all kinds of code pages.

    The early computers were a step back. My first typewriter had no problems with accents and tremas. It even had a key for the Dutch concatenatd 'ij'. My first computer was Upper case ASCII only. But computers have evolved. Now my computer
    can do much more than that typewriter.

    I have at least 3 different ones.

    First I have the UniCorn BBS system at Dos 5 with CP437

    My memory may fail me, but IIRC even DOS 5 had the CHCP command to switch code pages. It came with at least a dozen. CP850 and CP866 included. For DOS there was also CYRILLIC.COM.

    Second I have all the RISC OS machines (RiscPC's, Pi's) using Latin 1.

    An exotic OS that may or may not support UTF-8 and/or IPv6 in future ...

    And third the Raspbian Stretch Linux at several other Raspberry Pi's.
    The last one can both Latin 1 and UTF8 If I am right.

    So it does UTF-8...

    When I collect some text from a website, I can only save that textfile
    If I choose UTF8. Whith the Default Latin 1 the saving gives an error,
    and won't save the textfile at all ;-(.

    Almost all websites are UTF-8 these days. So of course you will hve problems with saving it in Latin-1. Adapt or be left behind...

    So if contributing FidoNews is restricted to UTF8 only, it will
    sure decrease your input.

    MvdV>> So simple submit your contribution in ASCII only. ASCII is a
    MvdV>> subset of UTF-8, so it will be accepted.

    Ok, thanks for the explanation.

    Always glad to be of help.

    MvdV>> Just help me refresh my memory: how many article did you submit
    MvdV>> so far?

    Sorry, but that is zero.

    In that case I think you should display a bit of modesty when venting opinions about what may or may not hold people back from submitting articles.

    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Henri Derksen@2:280/1208 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thursday, May 30, 2019 16:06:00
    Hello Michiel,

    At this moment I donot like the UTF 8 circus.

    MvdV> "Onbekend maakt onbemind".

    That's not the problem, but that it does not work at my favorite machine,
    and every so x-time changing machines and OS, also take much energy not everyone has. So I do that as less as possible.

    The complex use of apostrophes etc is only a way to distinguish from
    other languages, and nothing more.

    MvdV> While in some languagas the use of accents, umlauts, tremas and other MvdV> diacritics may be purely cosmetic in some cases, in others they are
    MvdV> essential to properly convey the meaning or indicate the pronunciation.

    MvdV> In Dutch the accents and tremas are essential.

    You can often read that from the context, so accents not always necessarry. Many people use them in the wrong way too, or do not use them at all.

    MvdV> "Een" and "n" mean different things.

    You can write e'e'n in stead, no special apostrophes needed ;-).

    MvdV> "Roel" and "Rol" are not the same person.

    You can write Ro"el, no special apostrophes needed ;-).
    At the basis school I learned that the trema means a split before the character it is placed on. So Ro"el is correct and Roe"l is wrong.
    Other point is the points on the i with a trema.
    There should be three of them not two,
    because the letter i already has one of its own.
    The trema is an extra 2 points, so in total 3.
    A good typewriter does this write well, i.e. which all the three points.
    That's why I am allways talking about the Point(s) on the i ;-).
    The Duth "y with dots are mostly spelled as two characters "ij" the same for other miltiple vowels in words. No need for a single character ij.
    In Germany they do the same by placing a letter e behind vowels with an Umlaut, nothing wrong with that.

    MvdV> And than of course there are languages with a completely different
    MvdV> alfabet, Greek and Russian come to mind.

    That is a far from my bed show, I have not the energy for to learn.
    In that way I had much respect of an old computerfriend who studied Thai characters and made much effort in it at his Acorn RiscPC and IyonixPC
    while he was above 70 years old. The reason whas his daughter in law.
    He died last year at 80, I still mis him, as I knew him for more than 30 years and also travelled together to England and Mortsel.BE several times.
    He was also one of my last Points.

    MvdV> Bjrn is right. The 26 letters of the ASCII character set are not enough MvdV> to properly express oneself in writing. Even for the Brittish it is not MvdV> enough . No pound sign '' in ASCII...

    You can write UKP for it, no special sign needed ;-).

    Mvdv>>> So what we have in common is that we have something we do not like. HD>> Yes because not al my systems can display all kinds of code pages.
    MvdV> The early computers were a step back.

    Yes.

    MvdV> My first typewriter had no problems with accents and tremas.

    Mine the same.

    MvdV> It even had a key for the Dutch concatenatd 'ij'.

    I have never learned about that special character at schools.
    I think it was something from before the 1960 ties.
    We all learned to write it in two characters, the same as "ei", "oe", "ui" etc. Many years after high school I heard about that special "y.

    MvdV> My first computer was Upper case ASCII only.

    My computer life started much better with the Acorn BBC in 1984,
    one of the top home computers at that time.
    Even the Mini's at work in 1980 (DataPoint55) had both upper and lowercase.
    In 1983 I studied witch CP/M machines like the Exidy Sorcerer.

    MvdV> But computers have evolved.

    Yes, not every one will follow, we have here someone only writing in lc.
    That's a choice others should also respect.

    MvdV> Now my computer can do much more than that typewriter.

    Yes, mines too.

    I have at least 3 different ones.

    First I have the UniCorn BBS system at Dos 5 with CP437

    MvdV> My memory may fail me, but IIRC even DOS 5 had the CHCP command to
    MvdV> switch code pages.

    I am aware of that.

    MvdV> It came with at least a dozen. CP850 and CP866 included.

    In the fido software you could choose for one at a time only.
    Changing after every message was and still is almost undoable.
    For the next message you had to leave all the programs, than change codepage, en then start all programs up again, to see it in the correct way.
    And after that you have to change it back again.
    So I choosed for CP437 as the most messages with graphics around text were written in that alphabet.
    But originally writing in High ASCII was forbidden, but many (new) writers still did it ;-(.
    After some time I stopped complaining and press the next key if it is unreadable here.
    At my RISC OS Point 1 system I can change between IBM CP437, Latin 1 and also all kind of rotated alphabeths from wich ROT13 is the best one known.

    MvdV> For DOS there was also CYRILLIC.COM.

    Even a far from my bed show I have not the energy for.

    Second I have all the RISC OS machines (RiscPC's, Pi's) using Latin 1.

    MvdV> An exotic OS that may or may not support UTF-8 and/or IPv6 in future ...

    We'll see. It is much more userfriendly than Windows which all its geeks.
    More is not allways better.
    Many phones now use ARM hardware too.
    When the cleaning up proces is more ready here, I go invest in new play tools like a better Linux laptop and may be a smartphone too.
    The Raspberry Pi 3B+ whith Raspbian Stretch Linux is a nice machine,
    but to light for daily office work. For FidoNet it will do.
    I often have to go to the library here to show YouTube films at their Win7 machines, and to print some letters. Since my last printer a Lexmark OC45 got defect, I do not invest in inktjet printers anymore.

    And third the Raspbian Stretch Linux at several other Raspberry Pi's.
    The last one can both Latin 1 and UTF8 If I am right.

    MvdV> So it does UTF-8...

    yes.

    When I collect some text from a website, I can only save that textfile HD>> If I choose UTF8. Whith the Default Latin 1 the saving gives an error, HD>> and won't save the textfile at all ;-(.

    MvdV> Almost all websites are UTF-8 these days. So of course you will hve
    MvdV> problems with saving it in Latin-1. Adapt or be left behind...

    I had no choice, en luckily I can read that saved UTF8 text's at my Latin 1 RiscPC from an USB stick.

    Greetings from Henri.

    ---
    * Origin: Computing Apart Together (2:280/1208)
  • From Henri Derksen@2:280/1208 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thursday, May 30, 2019 16:36:00
    Hello Michiel,

    In case you didn't know it, Fidonet is and has always been a DOS
    based network.
    MvdV>>> Not any more.
    MvdV>>> Systen running on pure DOS are the rare exceptions these days.

    Mine for instance ;-).

    MvdV> Wrong tense. Your DOS FrontDoor system /was/ one of the rare exceptions. MvdV> It is no longer operational.

    I still use it daily, I am writing on it now.
    Only the transfer stopped (temporarely) because of a defective RS232 card.
    Now I use the Raspberry Pi 1B2 with RISC OS and !ROSBink for that at IP.
    Then I move the received pkt's to it by floppy disk, and the sended out ones back to the Pi. The Acorn RiscPC is the central machine in the local net to
    do the transfers. Part of it is automated.
    When I am ready with the Husky system at Raspbian Stretch, than that will become the UniCorn BBS machine, may be even with POTS again too.
    I have an USB2A from/to RS232c cable wich works great for my AIS receiver at the Pi 3B with OpenCPN 4.99.0 on Raspbian Stretch Linux 2018.

    MvdV> It may have been the last of the Mohikans. ;-)

    Yes.

    MvdV>>> AFAIK no Fidonet mailer ever ran on an 8 bit system.
    That is not completely sure.
    MvdV> Note the "AFAIK".

    That's why I was explaining it here.

    Some guys of our othernet AcoNet wrote FTN BBCscan software for the 8
    bit Acorn BBC B computers to communicatie with FidoNet systems.

    I too wrote software for my 8 bit Flex system to "communicate with
    Fidonet systems". I could use it to read and write messages posted on
    BBS's participating in Fidonet. But it was not a Fidonet mailer. It
    could not do FTS-1.

    Our Acorn BBC B's could do later on with BBCscan.

    That was at the end of the 80's start of the 90's.

    MvdV> If that Acorn BBS system was really a Fidonet system, what was its node MvdV> number and in which period was it in the Fidonet nodelist?

    I donot know the Node numbers, but the first one was Evert Snel, he later on moved from The Hague to Eindhoven area and transferred his body to become a female, they call such people transgenders.
    The other one was Simon Voortman in Ouddorp who still is a FidoNet node.
    Later he changed his 8 bit machines for the 26 and 32 bit RISC OS machines. There were two other 8 bit Acorn sysop's in AcoNet in the area of Alpen aan de Rijn, but I do not know if they were FidoNetters too?

    Henri.

    ---
    * Origin: Computing Apart Together (2:280/1208)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Henri Derksen on Friday, May 31, 2019 11:00:55
    I do not know the Node numbers, but the first one was Evert Snel,

    2:512/100 Evert Snel from Delft Holland 1988.01.08 -1989.06.16
    2:285/810 Evert Snel from Delft 1993.02.19 - 1994.05.06
    2:281/633 Evert Snel from Delft 1994.03.18 - 1996.08.02

    Once again thanks to Pavel Gulchouck 2:463/68



    ..

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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Björn Felten on Friday, May 31, 2019 11:19:42
    Once again thanks to Pavel Gulchouck 2:463/68

    You definitely must have relatives in the Netherlands.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Friday, May 31, 2019 13:28:24
    Once again thanks to Pavel Gulchouck 2:463/68

    You definitely must have relatives in the Netherlands.

    Negatory. My relatives on my father's side all come from Jewish parts of Germany and on my mother's side from all Arian parts of Sweden. All about eight
    generations back, that's as far as I have managed to track them down.

    Being a long time native Swede, I probably have a little Walloon genes in my
    blood, since almost all Swedes living today do. But that should be Belgium and
    not the Netherlands, no?


    ..

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  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Henri Derksen on Friday, May 31, 2019 14:23:20
    Hello Henri,

    On Thursday May 30 2019 16:06, you wrote to me:

    At this moment I donot like the UTF 8 circus.

    MvdV>> "Onbekend maakt onbemind".

    That's not the problem,

    I think it is for at least a part. You obviously did not know that ASCII is a subset of UTF-8. The part about "unknown" is certainly true.

    but that it does not work at my favorite machine,

    Your favourite machine is 30 years old. How long can you expect the rest of Fidonet to hold back because you want to hold on to three decades old stuff? If
    all of mankind had that attitude, there would not have been a mankind. We'd never have left the sea and still be fish.

    MvdV>> In Dutch the accents and tremas are essential.

    You can often read that from the context,

    And sometimes one can not.

    so accents not always necessarry.

    "not always" != "never".

    There is also the reading experience. The eye also wants its share. Text with proper accentuation and punctuation is much more pleasent to read than the bare
    minimum where one has to guess what is meant exactly.

    Many people use them in the wrong way too, or do not use
    them at all.

    That's no excuse. Just as it is no excuse that some people do not espect red lights.

    MvdV>> "Een" and "n" mean different things.

    You can write e'e'n in stead, no special apostrophes needed ;-).

    I can, but it looks awfull. Plus that if I need to encase it in quotes, reading
    becomes a parsing contest: 'e'e'n'. Can you parse "'e'e'n'"?

    MvdV>> "Roel" and "Rol" are not the same person.

    You can write Ro"el, no special apostrophes needed ;-).

    I can write it. In the sense that with some effort I can push the required keys
    in my keyboard. But when I see "Ro"el" I have to think very hard to extract the meaning. Plus that search algoritms will not work with this encoding. Googling "Rol" and "Ro"el" give very different results.

    At the basis school I learned that the trema means a split before the character it is placed on. So Ro"el is correct and Roe"l is
    wrong.

    So you say. But my guess is that that is just your opinion and not fact learned
    at school. When I learned to read at school there were no computers ans ASCII did not exist yet. Dutch typewrites could deal witg accents and tremas in the proper way. Encodeing ano with trema as the sequence ""o" or "o"" was totally unheard of. Yiu are younger than me,abiou at decade, but I do not think you learned this abberant encoding in elementary school,

    Other point is the points on the i with a trema. There should
    be three of them not two, because the letter i already has one of its
    own. The trema is an extra 2 points, so in total 3. A good typewriter
    does this write well, i.e. which all the three points.

    If you say so. I have never seen such a typewriter. If an is created by overstriking it may result in three dots above. I would not say that therefore it is correct. Language is not logic, it follows its own rules. The convention is two dots over the i.

    That's why I am allways talking about the Point(s) on the i ;-).

    Then put your money where your moyh is and TYPE an '' with three dots above. ;-)

    The Duth "y with dots are mostly spelled as two characters "ij"

    That is not how I learned it in elementary school. On Roggeveen's "Aap, noot mies" leesplankje yje "ij" in "Gijs" was one letter:

    https://www.knutselstore.nl/diamond-painting/diamond-painting-aap-noot-mies-40x 60/

    And that is how I learned to write it. ONE letter, written without lifting the pen from the paper. Writing it as a the digraph 'ij' was a consession to internationalisation when the market was flooded with foreign typewriters not supporting the Dutch concatenated 'ij'

    In Germany they do the same by placing a letter e behind
    vowels with an Umlaut, nothing wrong with that.

    Waht is wring wit it, is that it only works for Germany. In Dutch it does not wok because most of those combinations are already "taken". "ae" "ie" "ee" and "oe" are already tekan.

    MvdV>> And than of course there are languages with a completely
    MvdV>> different alfabet, Greek and Russian come to mind.

    That is a far from my bed show,

    Yet there are EU countries were Cyrillic is the alfabet for the native Language. North Macedonia and Bulgaria come to mind. It is not all that far. You can het there in your own car without needing a passport.

    I have not the energy for to learn.

    Pity. But you can't bocj the rest of Fidonet just because of that...

    MvdV>> Bjrn is right. The 26 letters of the ASCII character set are
    MvdV>> not enough to properly express oneself in writing. Even for the
    MvdV>> Brittish it is not enough . No pound sign '' in ASCII...

    You can write UKP for it, no special sign needed ;-).

    The problem with thse acronyms is that they are seldom unique. I get hundreds of hit when I google "UKP". For startes:

    Univeriteits Kliniek voor Paarden.
    Utrechtse Komeptite Programmeren.
    Ukranian Kommunist Party
    Unieke Kansen Programma
    UKP Worldwide (a parcel service)
    UKP Prins Joep I

    And so on, and so on. The UK Pound may have been way further down the list.

    MvdV>> The early computers were a step back.

    Yes.

    MvdV>> My first typewriter had no problems with accents and tremas.

    Mine the same.

    MvdV>> It even had a key for the Dutch concatenatd 'ij'.

    I have never learned about that special character at schools.

    See above. It was NOt a special charactyer when I learned it. It was the 'y'that was "foreign".

    MvdV>> But computers have evolved.

    Yes, not every one will follow, we have here someone only writing in
    lc. That's a choice others should also respect.

    Respect should be a two way street...


    First I have the UniCorn BBS system at Dos 5 with CP437

    MvdV>> My memory may fail me, but IIRC even DOS 5 had the CHCP command
    MvdV>> to switch code pages.

    I am aware of that.

    MvdV>> It came with at least a dozen. CP850 and CP866 included.

    In the fido software you could choose for one at a time only.
    Changing after every message was and still is almost undoable.
    For the next message you had to leave all the programs, than change codepage, en then start all programs up again,

    Then maybe you should widen your horizon. Even for DOS reader that can change encoding on the fly have been around for a quarter of a century. No excuse..

    MvdV>> For DOS there was also CYRILLIC.COM.

    Even a far from my bed show I have not the energy for.

    Just downloading the program and typing CYRILLIC at the DOS prompt did the trick.

    MvdV>> Almost all websites are UTF-8 these days. So of course you will
    MvdV>> hve problems with saving it in Latin-1. Adapt or be left
    MvdV>> behind...

    I had no choice,

    There is always a choice. You have choosen to not upgrade your hardware to keep
    op with 21st century state of the art and stay with your antiquated harware. That is your choice. I respect that, but I won't go as far as completely halting progress for all of Fidonet just because you choose to stagnate.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Henri Derksen on Friday, May 31, 2019 22:02:26
    Hello Henri,

    On Thursday May 30 2019 16:36, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Wrong tense. Your DOS FrontDoor system /was/ one of the rare
    MvdV>> exceptions. It is no longer operational.

    I still use it daily, I am writing on it now.
    Only the transfer stopped (temporarely) because of a defective RS232
    card.

    The transfer part is an essential part of a Fidonet node. Without the ability to transfer files to other Fidonet systems it does not qualify as an operational Fidonet system. The fact that you use it as a terminal to read mail, does not make it an operational Fido system.

    Now I use the Raspberry Pi 1B2 with RISC OS and !ROSBink for that at
    IP.

    So your Pi is the operational Fido system.

    Then I move the received pkt's to it by floppy disk, and the sended
    out ones back to the Pi. The Acorn RiscPC is the central machine in
    the local net to do the transfers.

    What you do with the pkt's is not pat of Fidonet strictly speaking.

    MvdV>> It may have been the last of the Mohikans. ;-)

    Yes.

    So write an article for the Smooze about it... :)

    MvdV>>>> AFAIK no Fidonet mailer ever ran on an 8 bit system.

    That is not completely sure.

    MvdV>> Note the "AFAIK".

    That's why I was explaining it here.

    OK...

    Some guys of our othernet AcoNet wrote FTN BBCscan software for
    the 8 bit Acorn BBC B computers to communicatie with FidoNet
    systems.

    I too wrote software for my 8 bit Flex system to "communicate with
    Fidonet systems". I could use it to read and write messages posted
    on BBS's participating in Fidonet. But it was not a Fidonet
    mailer. It could not do FTS-1.

    Our Acorn BBC B's could do later on with BBCscan.

    Still not a Fidonet node...

    That was at the end of the 80's start of the 90's.

    MvdV>> If that Acorn BBS system was really a Fidonet system, what was
    MvdV>> its node number and in which period was it in the Fidonet
    MvdV>> nodelist?

    I donot know the Node numbers, but the first one was Evert Snel, he
    later on moved from The Hague to Eindhoven area and transferred his
    body to become a female, they call such people transgenders.

    Your point?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Friday, May 31, 2019 22:09:45
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Friday May 31 2019 11:00, you wrote to Henri Derksen:

    I do not know the Node numbers, but the first one was Evert Snel,

    2:512/100 Evert Snel from Delft Holland 1988.01.08 -1989.06.16
    2:285/810 Evert Snel from Delft 1993.02.19 - 1994.05.06
    2:281/633 Evert Snel from Delft 1994.03.18 - 1996.08.02

    Once again thanks to Pavel Gulchouck 2:463/68

    So there was a sysop listed by the name of Evert Snel. That does not prove he ran an operational Fidonet system on an 8 bit machine does it.

    And if he did, it does not negate that AFAIK no Fidonet node ever ran on an 8 bit system. It just shows that I do not know everything. Regarding proving your
    point... You have thrown up so many smoke screens by now that I have lost track of whatever your point was. Congratulations.

    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Björn Felten on Friday, May 31, 2019 23:59:07
    Once again thanks to Pavel Gulchouck 2:463/68

    You definitely must have relatives in the Netherlands.

    Negatory.

    I only asked because you have a habit of stating the obvious and making it sound as if you just invented the hot water.

    Pavel Gulchouck's work can be accessed from the updated first page at fidonet.org, it's not something you unearthed.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Michiel van der Vlist on Friday, May 31, 2019 23:59:10
    Regarding
    proving your point... You have thrown up so many smoke screens by now
    that I have lost track of whatever your point was. Congratulations.

    It is called "Pulling a Witt".

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Ward Dossche on Saturday, June 01, 2019 11:00:27
    On 31/05/2019 23:59, Ward Dossche -> Michiel van der Vlist wrote:

    Regarding proving your point... You have thrown up so many smoke screens by now
    that I have lost track of whatever your point was. Congratulations.

    It is called "Pulling a Witt".

    He whose name must not be mentioned......

    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854.1 to David Drummond on Saturday, June 01, 2019 10:25:21
    It is called "Pulling a Witt".

    He whose name must not be mentioned......

    It's not exactly Godwin's law.

    Ward

    --- AfterShock/Android 1.6.8
    * Origin: Baby-Glacier (2:292/854.1)
  • From Henri Derksen@2:280/1208 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sunday, June 02, 2019 02:55:00
    Hello Michiel,

    MvdV> So your Pi is the operational Fido system.

    Ok.

    Some guys of our othernet AcoNet wrote FTN BBCscan software for
    the 8 bit Acorn BBC B computers to communicatie with FidoNet
    systems.

    Not as a BBS user or a Point but as a Mailer.

    Our Acorn BBC B's could do later on with BBCscan.

    MvdV> Still not a Fidonet node...

    We had at least 4 sysops both AcoNet and FidoNet with 8 Bit Acorn BBC machines,
    one even an Acorn Electron, and that guy Richard Splinter even wrote his own BBS program CBBS for his Electron.

    That was at the end of the 80's start of the 90's.

    MvdV>>> If that Acorn BBS system was really a Fidonet system, what was
    MvdV>>> its node number and in which period was it in the Fidonet
    MvdV>>> nodelist?

    I donot know the Node numbers,

    Yesterday I saw a file with Both AcoNet and FidoNet nodenumbers including sysop
    names and phonenumbers, but today I could not find it anymore :-(.
    some time i'll see it later. Memory is a difficult matter ;-(.

    but the first one was Evert Snel, he later on moved from The Hague to
    Eindhoven area and transferred his body to become a female,
    they call such people transgenders.

    MvdV> Your point?

    (S)he was for a long time our AcoNet host and also had a FidoNet node number. He wrote BBCscan for tossing and scanning mail from/to PKT for both AcoNet and FidoNet.

    Henri.

    ---
    * Origin: Computing Apart Together (2:280/1208)
  • From Henri Derksen@2:280/1208 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sunday, June 02, 2019 03:59:00
    Hello Michiel,

    MvdV> So there was a sysop listed by the name of Evert Snel. That does not MvdV> prove he ran an operational Fidonet system on an 8 bit machine does it.

    Look here:
    <http://eveliensnel.com/bbs>
    you unbelievable Thomas.
    And also here:
    <http://evelinsnel.com/cv>

    His own written mailer was BBSCan with FTS001, and his Nodenumber was: 2:512/100.

    The other 8 bit Acorn guys with an AcoNet and FidoNet Nodenumber were:
    Richard Splinter from The Cage BBS, with CBBS at an Acorn Electron,
    Jan Jaap van der Geer from Brother John BBS,
    Peet Scholte from HUCO BBS at an Acorn Archimedes,
    Simon Voortman from The Coast BBS at an Acorn BBC B,
    BBS De Ranstad at an Acorn A3000,
    And there were sure some more, even one in Danmark QuercusBBS!
    also some Acorn systems in Germany;
    Yeti Flensburg Birger Harzenetter,
    ArcPool Wolfsburg Stefan Brueck,
    ArcWay Berlin Andreas Itzigehl.
    And the World of Cryton BBS at 2:201/226 in England.
    Is this enough proof?

    MvdV> And if he did, it does not negate that AFAIK no Fidonet node ever ran on MvdV> an 8 bit system.

    No, but you just gave the suggestion there were none.
    That AFAIK is only a sort of security in case you missed something.

    MvdV> It just shows that I do not know everything.

    Of course not, No one knows everything, nothing to shame for.

    MvdV> Regarding proving your point...

    I told you many years before we had more systems running BBSes and exchanging mail in both AcoNet and FidoNet on both 8 bit and 26 bit Acorn computers.
    Also Jan Vermeulen was member of AcoNet and had Acorn computers,
    but his BBS and mailer ran on dos PC's, so was mine.

    MvdV> You have thrown up so many smoke screens by now

    That's your coloured view.
    I did not have the intention to hide something.
    (S)he (Evelien) is still alive and kicking as you can see at her website.
    You also know Simon Voortman.
    He can stand that he ran his BBS at an Acorn BBC, including AcoNet, but
    I am unsure when he started being a member of FidoNet,
    or if he already changed his BBS to a 26 bit Acorn A5000 or Acorn RiscPC.
    He also used his R7500 for that task some time.
    Now he uses a Linux system with Husky.

    MvdV> that I have lost track of whatever your point was. Congratulations.

    I'll send you some Dutch files to prove more.

    Henri.

    ---
    * Origin: Computing Apart Together (2:280/1208)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Sunday, June 02, 2019 08:24:29
    Pavel Gulchouck's work can be accessed from the updated first page at fidonet.org, it's not something you unearthed.

    Ahhhh, I see. So you want to think that *you* "unearthed" it 12 May 2019? Sorry, but I've known about it for many years before that.



    ..

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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Björn Felten on Sunday, June 02, 2019 10:47:34
    Pavel Gulchouck's work can be accessed from the updated first page BF>WD> at fidonet.org, it's not something you unearthed.

    Ahhhh, I see. So you want to think that *you* "unearthed" it 12 May
    2019? Sorry, but I've known about it for many years before that.

    Imagine all the nice articles you could have written in the meantime instead of
    just pissing around.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Henri Derksen on Sunday, June 02, 2019 10:31:31
    Hello Henri,

    On Sunday June 02 2019 02:55, you wrote to me:

    including sysop names and phonenumbers, but today I could not find it anymore :-(. some time i'll see it later. Memory is a difficult matter ;-(.

    Sounds familiar. ;-)

    but the first one was Evert Snel, he later on moved from The
    Hague to Eindhoven area and transferred his body to become a
    female, they call such people transgenders.

    MvdV>> Your point?

    (S)he was for a long time our AcoNet host and also had a FidoNet node number. He wrote BBCscan for tossing and scanning mail from/to PKT for both AcoNet and FidoNet.

    I meant what was your point when mentioning the gender change? How is that relevant to the issue that started al this? Which - if my memory does not fail me - was the character encoding to be used for Fidonews articles?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Henri Derksen on Sunday, June 02, 2019 11:02:10
    Hello Henri,

    On Sunday June 02 2019 03:59, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> You have thrown up so many smoke screens by now

    That's your coloured view.
    I did not have the intention to hide something.

    It was directed at Bj"orn (That is the correct spelling according to you, isn''t it?)

    IIRC we were discussing the encoding to be used for Fidonews articles. Sidetracking into the question if there ever were Fidonet nodes running on 8 bit systems is just a smoke screen.

    (S)he (Evelien) is still alive and kicking as you can see at her
    website. You also know Simon Voortman. He can stand that he ran his
    BBS at an Acorn BBC, including AcoNet, but I am unsure when he started being a member of FidoNet, or if he already changed his BBS to a 26
    bit Acorn A5000 or Acorn RiscPC. He also used his R7500 for that task
    some time. Now he uses a Linux system with Husky.

    MvdV>> that I have lost track of whatever your point was.
    MvdV>> Congratulations.

    I'll send you some Dutch files to prove more.

    Please don't. You have convinced met that there were Fidonet nodes running on an 8 bit systems. Can we now please let this smoke screen drift away?

    I am not in the mood of spending much time behind the screen today. Summer has arrived....


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Sunday, June 02, 2019 11:18:23
    Imagine all the nice articles you could have written in the meantime instead of just pissing around.

    Ditto.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sunday, June 02, 2019 11:20:57
    MvdV> Sidetracking into the question if there ever were Fidonet nodes running
    MvdV> on 8 bit systems is just a smoke screen.

    As opposed to your claim that there never was an FTN mailer running on an 8-bit system, you mean?



    ..

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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sunday, June 02, 2019 11:26:00
    MvdV> if my memory does not fail me - was the character encoding to be used
    MvdV> for Fidonews articles?

    It *does* fail you. The question was what character encoding to use if you want your article to show as you want it to in the echo -- not in the actual Fidonews.

    Your IPv6 list seems to show OK in both versions every week, no...?




    ..

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  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Sunday, June 02, 2019 11:49:03
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Sunday June 02 2019 11:20, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Sidetracking into the question if there ever were Fidonet nodes
    MvdV>> running on 8 bit systems is just a smoke screen.

    As opposed to your claim that there never was an FTN mailer running
    on an 8-bit system, you mean?

    I made no such claim. What I stated was that I did not KNOW of any such systems.

    Henri has provided the information that showed such systems DID exist. Running on an Acorn system. Thereby disproving your claim:

    In case you didn't know it, Fidonet is and has always been a DOS
    based network.

    Which claim was a smoke screen.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Sunday, June 02, 2019 11:42:00
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Sunday June 02 2019 11:26, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> if my memory does not fail me - was the character encoding to
    MvdV>> be used for Fidonews articles?

    It *does* fail you. The question was what character encoding to use
    if you want your article to show as you want it to in the echo -- not
    in the actual Fidonews.

    So your smoke screen was effective, you made me lose track of what it was all about.

    Congratulations!

    Your IPv6 list seems to show OK in both versions every week, no...?

    For now.

    Wait and see what happens if one of our Russian, Ukranian or Greek friends also
    wants the name correctly spelled in his|her native language.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sunday, June 02, 2019 12:34:30
    MvdV> So your smoke screen was effective,

    Your definition of a smoke smoke screen obviously is different from mine. Trying to elaborate a discussion is not what I, and most of the scientific world, would call a smoke screen.

    YMMV. Obviously. :(



    ..

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  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Henri Derksen on Sunday, June 02, 2019 16:51:26
    Hello Henri,

    On Sunday June 02 2019 03:59, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> So there was a sysop listed by the name of Evert Snel. That does
    MvdV>> not prove he ran an operational Fidonet system on an 8 bit
    MvdV>> machine does it.

    Look here:
    <http://eveliensnel.com/bbs>

    Hmmm. I waded through a few pages. Then I gave up. It is 30 Celsius here. Too hot to spend much time behind the screen.

    you unbelievable Thomas.

    "Doubting Thomas".

    You wil have to live with that. I am a scientist. I am educated (indoctrinated if you want) with the basic principle of never accepting something as fact just
    because someone says so.

    Every scientist should be a "doubting thomas".

    And also here:
    <http://evelinsnel.com/cv>

    "Server not found".


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sunday, June 02, 2019 17:16:48
    <http://eveliensnel.com/bbs>

    MvdV> Hmmm. I waded through a few pages.

    <http://evelinsnel.com/cv>

    MvdV> "Server not found".

    Since the first server obviously was found, can it be that the second link was misspelled and should be:

    http://eveliensnel.com/bbs/

    Just asking, without really being interested...



    ..

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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sunday, June 02, 2019 17:21:36
    Since the first server obviously was found, can it be that the
    second link was misspelled and should be:

    http://eveliensnel.com/bbs/

    I meant http://eveliensnel.com/cv/ obviously.




    ..

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  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Sunday, June 02, 2019 21:42:44
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Sunday June 02 2019 17:21, you wrote to me:

    Since the first server obviously was found, can it be that
    the second link was misspelled and should be:

    http://eveliensnel.com/bbs/

    I meant http://eveliensnel.com/cv/ obviously.

    Nah. it was a temporay glitch. The link is working now.

    A wild goose chase. There is nothing there regarding any Fidonet node (s)he supposedly ran. Somebody wasted my valuable time.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sunday, June 02, 2019 22:14:20
    MvdV> Nah. it was a temporay glitch. The link is working now.

    No it wasn't. It was a permanent "glitch" caused by a missing E in the URL.

    <http://evelinsnel.com/cv>

    ... rather than the proper

    <http://eveliensnel.com/cv>

    And you should have been able to detect that, just as I did, based upon the "server not found" response.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Sunday, June 02, 2019 22:27:24
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Sunday June 02 2019 22:14, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Nah. it was a temporay glitch. The link is working now.

    No it wasn't. It was a permanent "glitch" caused by a missing E in
    the URL.

    <http://evelinsnel.com/cv>

    ... rather than the proper

    <http://eveliensnel.com/cv>

    And you should have been able to detect that, just as I did,

    And you could have told me right away instead of wasting my time over a spelling error.

    Congratulations for once again winnig a pissing contest.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sunday, June 02, 2019 22:45:57
    MvdV> And you could have told me right away

    How? If not the way I did it?

    Are you doing a Ward now? Never publicly admit that you made a mistake?



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Sunday, June 02, 2019 23:09:48
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Sunday June 02 2019 22:45, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> And you could have told me right away

    How? If not the way I did it?

    You could have explicitly told me it was the missing 'e' that was the problem. Instead of just providing the corrected link.

    Are you doing a Ward now? Never publicly admit that you made a
    mistake?

    Yes I made the mistake of just copy pasting your corrected link, see it work end never realising it differed from the link provided by Henri. I never noticed that missing 'e'.

    FYI: I suffer from a mild form of dislexia. I am blind to these kind of subtle spelling errors unless it is explicitly pointed out to me.

    Happy now?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Michiel van der Vlist on Sunday, June 02, 2019 18:42:00
    Michiel van der Vlist wrote to Bjrn Felten <=-

    And you should have been able to detect that, just as I did,

    And you could have told me right away instead of wasting my time
    over a spelling error.

    Congratulations for once again winnig a pissing contest.

    Why do you keep entering said contests with him?



    ... Facts cannot prevail against faith, or adamant folly.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.07-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Michiel van der Vlist on Monday, June 03, 2019 11:54:26
    On 3/06/2019 00:51, Michiel van der Vlist -> Henri Derksen wrote:

    Look here:
    <http://eveliensnel.com/bbs>

    MvdV> Hmmm. I waded through a few pages. Then I gave up. It is 30 Celsius
    MvdV> here. Too hot to spend much time behind the screen.

    30C is "too hot"?

    I spent some weeks this last (southern hemisphere) summer enjoying 44C day after day.

    30C is just balmy.

    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Björn Felten on Monday, June 03, 2019 11:57:04
    On 3/06/2019 06:45, 2:203/2 wrote:
    MvdV>> And you could have told me right away

    How? If not the way I did it?

    Are you doing a Ward now? Never publicly admit that you made a
    mistake?

    When did Ward ever make a mistake?

    He thought he was mistaken once - but he was wrong.

    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to David Drummond on Monday, June 03, 2019 12:10:00
    On 06-03-19 11:54, David Drummond wrote to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

    30C is just balmy.

    Yep, 30C is just a pleasant day.:)


    ... Got my tie caught in the fax... Suddenly I was in L.A.
    === MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Tony Langdon on Monday, June 03, 2019 11:33:32
    Hello Tony!

    03 Jun 19 12:10, you wrote to David Drummond:

    On 06-03-19 11:54, David Drummond wrote to Michiel van der Vlist <=-

    30C is just balmy.

    Yep, 30C is just a pleasant day.:)

    It was a nice spring day. Yesterday I returned from a three day meeting with
    R24 Fidonutters. Almost the whole trip from Frankfurt over Hannover to my
    place, the car thermometer indicated 33 deg C.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Kees van Eeten on Monday, June 03, 2019 22:23:00
    On 06-03-19 11:33, Kees van Eeten wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    It was a nice spring day. Yesterday I returned from a three day
    meeting with
    R24 Fidonutters. Almost the whole trip from Frankfurt over Hannover to my
    place, the car thermometer indicated 33 deg C.

    Send some of that here. :) Expecting 13 tomorrow. :/


    ... All good things must come to an e
    === MultiMail/Win32 v0.49
    --- SBBSecho 3.03-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (3:633/410)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to MICHIEL VAN DER VLIST on Monday, June 03, 2019 16:04:50
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Sunday June 02 2019 11:20, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Sidetracking into the question if there ever were Fidonet nodes
    MvdV>> running on 8 bit systems is just a smoke screen.

    As opposed to your claim that there never was an FTN mailer running on an 8-bit system, you mean?

    I made no such claim. What I stated was that I did not KNOW of any such systems.

    Henri has provided the information that showed such systems DID exist.
    Running
    on an Acorn system. Thereby disproving your claim:

    In case you didn't know it, Fidonet is and has always been a DOS based network.

    Which claim was a smoke screen.

    A fellow named Jack WInslade in Omaha, NE, wrote a complete Fidonet
    system that ran under CP/M on 8080 and Z-80 processors. Originally he
    called it 'Tabby' (for some reason) but somebody who already had
    something with that name threatened to sue him so he renamed it 'Ybbat.'
    He had several CP/M systems in the Omaha area that ran on various 8-bit machines, including a Heath H-8 and an IMSAI 8080
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to BJƒRN FELTEN on Monday, June 03, 2019 16:06:42
    MvdV> Sidetracking into the question if there ever were Fidonet nodes
    running
    MvdV> on 8 bit systems is just a smoke screen.

    As opposed to your claim that there never was an FTN mailer running
    on an
    8-bit system, you mean?

    Thirty or so years ago, 1:285/0 and 1:285/1 were both running on 8-bit
    CP/M systems. 285/0 was the hub for the Omaha, NE, area
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to David Drummond on Monday, June 03, 2019 22:30:29
    Hello David,

    On Monday June 03 2019 11:54, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Hmmm. I waded through a few pages. Then I gave up. It is 30
    MvdV>> Celsius here. Too hot to spend much time behind the screen.

    30C is "too hot"?

    That was the temperature outside. Here in the room where my keyboard and screen
    are it was hotter.

    To hot to argue with Bj"orn. ;-)

    I spent some weeks this last (southern hemisphere) summer enjoying 44C
    day after day.

    30C is just balmy.

    You are closer to the equator. Here at 52 degrees North, we are supposed to have a moderate climate. In my youth temperatures above 30C were rare. Now we see it more often, but it is still considere hot here. Out bodies are not tuned
    to it. 44C is (still) unheard of here.

    You live near the tropics and are more used to it. Even ethogh here (the meteorological) summer has just started and you are at the start of winter.



    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Kees van Eeten on Monday, June 03, 2019 22:43:45
    Hello Kees,

    On Monday June 03 2019 11:33, you wrote to Tony Langdon:

    Yep, 30C is just a pleasant day.:)

    It was a nice spring day. Yesterday I returned from a three day
    meeting with R24 Fidonutters. Almost the whole trip from Frankfurt
    over Hannover to my place, the car thermometer indicated 33 deg C.

    You were born in the tropics. You have cooling fluid in your blood. ;-)


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tuesday, June 04, 2019 11:40:13
    On 4/06/2019 06:30, Michiel van der Vlist -> David Drummond wrote:

    30C is "too hot"?

    MvdV> That was the temperature outside. Here in the room where my keyboard and
    MvdV> screen are it was hotter.

    MvdV> To hot to argue with Bj"orn. ;-)

    True

    I spent some weeks this last (southern hemisphere) summer enjoying 44C
    day after day.

    30C is just balmy.

    MvdV> You are closer to the equator. Here at 52 degrees North, we are supposed
    MvdV> to have a moderate climate.

    I am at 25 degrees south, but we didn't see 44C here.

    I was travelling and was visiting as far as 34 degrees south. I was somewhat inland (Cootamundra NSW) and it was a very dry atmosphere. Where I live is just
    25km inland, it gets very humid which seems to hold the actual temperature down somewhat.

    MvdV> In my youth temperatures above 30C were
    MvdV> rare. Now we see it more often, but it is still considered hot here. Our
    MvdV> bodies are not tuned to it. 44C is (still) unheard of here.

    MvdV> You live near the tropics and are more used to it. Even though here (the
    MvdV> meteorological) summer has just started and you are at the start of winter.

    Yes, winter has started. I am seeing it down to 7C at night (nearly midday now and it's 16C).

    --

    Gang warily
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Henri Derksen@2:280/1208 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wednesday, June 05, 2019 01:58:00
    Hello Michiel,

    MvdV> I think it is for at least a part. You obviously did not know that ASCII MvdV> is a subset of UTF-8. The part about "unknown" is certainly true.

    OK.

    MvdV> Your favourite machine is 30 years old.

    Only the case, powersupply, and motherboard.
    Every thing else is upgraded with more recent parts,
    i.e. including Kinetic StrongARM processor with extra memory at the processorcard, extra main and video memory, large HDD of 80 GB
    More serial ports, two NIC's, SCSI. Jaz drive, LCD monitor, USB ports etc.
    So it is a mucgh expanded machine.

    MvdV> How long can you expect the rest of Fidonet to hold back because you MvdV> want to hold on to three decades old stuff?

    Have you ever heard of KISS, Keep it Stupid Simple.
    The current race for every time new hard- and software is only an econmic reason to earn money and making very few people rich, i.e. Bill Gates etc..

    Some guys send much overhead in a Word file, for just a simple weblink.
    They could also send a simple textfile instead of a M$ Word file.
    The same happends with HTML in E-Mail. HTML is for websites, not for mail.

    MvdV> If all of mankind had that attitude, there would not have been a
    MvdV> mankind. We'd never have left the sea and still be fish.

    Now the fish in the oceans get more and more plastics to eat ;-(.
    Old western hardware is moved to eastern countries were it pollutes the soil.

    MvdV> There is also the reading experience. The eye also wants its share.

    In books and at posters yes,
    but for simple mail it is only giving the stress of unlimited choices.
    Here in the western world people ar going mad because of so many silly choices. See all that kinds of thea with fruits in it etc.
    Complete nonsense I think. I still use only one kind I always used.
    All others are overkill, even when you compare that to people who have no thea at all ;-(.

    You can write e'e'n in stead, no special apostrophes needed ;-).

    MvdV> I can, but it looks awfull.

    I donot care for that very few occasion.

    MvdV> Plus that if I need to encase it in quotes,
    MvdV> reading becomes a parsing contest: 'e'e'n'. Can you parse "'e'e'n'"?

    Why should it be enclosed in quotes?

    MvdV>>> "Roel" and "Rol" are not the same person.

    You can write Ro"el, no special apostrophes needed ;-).

    MvdV> I can write it. In the sense that with some effort I can push the
    MvdV> required keys in my keyboard.

    And I have problems to find the right keys for that High ASCII character
    I seldom use. Besides that, on many machines it is something else for that character, no thanks. Almost no keyboard is the same ;-(.

    MvdV> But when I see "Ro"el" I have to think
    MvdV> very hard to extract the meaning. Plus that search algoritms will not MvdV> work with this encoding.

    That's just a much better privacy lock ;-).

    MvdV> Googling "Rol" and "Ro"el" give very different results.

    You opposed not te be found by Google.

    At the basis school I learned that the trema means a split before the character it is placed on. So Ro"el is correct and Roe"l is
    wrong.

    MvdV> So you say. But my guess is that that is just your opinion and not fact MvdV> learned at school.

    It was explicitely explained where the word should be splitted,
    i.e. before the letter with the trema on it.

    MvdV> When I learned to read at school there were no computers ans ASCII
    MvdV> did not exist yet.

    That has nothing to do with it. The trema is needed to split the pronounciation between the two vowels, you normally speach out as one sound.
    It means a split in sound, and also writing to show the difference.

    MvdV> Dutch typewrites could deal witg accents and tremas in the proper way. MvdV> Encodeing ano with trema as the sequence ""o" or "o"" was totally
    MvdV> unheard of.

    Of course no one wrote the trema before a letter, but just above.
    You had only to think were the immaginary split of the sound should be
    en that was before the vowel with the trema, never behind.

    Other point is the points on the i with a trema. There should
    be three of them not two, because the letter i already has one of its
    own. The trema is an extra 2 points, so in total 3. A good typewriter
    does this write well, i.e. which all the three points.

    MvdV> If you say so. I have never seen such a typewriter. If an is created MvdV> by overstriking it may result in three dots above.

    And that is the only correct presentation, as the trema is an extra, above the normal letter i with its own point already above it.

    MvdV> I would not say that therefore it is correct. Language is not logic, MvdV> it follows its own rules. The convention is two dots over the i.

    I always wrote three points in the i when necessarry.
    Not any teacher corrected me of this writing, and after 1975 I wrote much by typewriting as I have a bad handwriting because of a small defect.

    That's why I am allways talking about the Point(s) on the i ;-).

    MvdV> Then put your money where your moyh is and TYPE an '' with three dots MvdV> above. ;-)

    In computer writing it is hardly possible to write 3 dots on the i.
    May be it could be done with LaTex?

    The Duth "y with dots are mostly spelled as two characters "ij"

    MvdV> That is not how I learned it in elementary school. On Roggeveen's
    MvdV> "Aap, noot mies" leesplankje yje "ij" in "Gijs" was one letter:

    MvdV> https://www.knutselstore.nl/diamond-painting/diamond-painting-aap-noot- MvdV> mies-40x60/

    I have never seen that at our schools.
    Only when my 5 years younger sister went to school in Rotterdam, she got that. My first impression was that is was a strange way of learning the reading.
    At our school in Nijmegen we had a more straight way, i.e. first learning the complete alphabet, and then starting reading in simple books.
    No kind of that reading woods ;-).

    MvdV> And that is how I learned to write it. ONE letter, written without
    MvdV> lifting the pen from the paper.

    We also learned to write the y in two letters without lifting the pen from
    the paper.
    I only saw that single character after I left my 5 schools I have been on.

    MvdV> Writing it as a the digraph 'ij' was a consession to
    MvdV> internationalisation when the market was flooded with
    MvdV> foreign typewriters not supporting the Dutch concatenated 'ij'

    My Swiss made typewriter Hermes 3000 from 1975 indeed does not have.
    The old first Hermes 3000 from 1969 from my mother neither.
    My Juki 2200 daisywheel typewriter with parallel port indeed has it,
    but I never used it, because I have not learned that letter.

    MvdV> Yet there are EU countries were Cyrillic is the alfabet for the native MvdV> Language. North Macedonia and Bulgaria come to mind. It is not all that MvdV> far. You can het there in your own car without needing a passport.

    I have not the energy for to learn.

    MvdV> Pity. But you can't bocj the rest of Fidonet just because of that...

    You are also going to learn at least the 2000 characters in Chinese or Japanes, Thay etc.?
    That is much more difficult.
    I see that great amount of characters the same as the UK way of counting money and measurements in feet, Pounds etc. as the USAsians still use.
    We have the more simpel metric system.
    As I wrote earlier; Keep it simple, in stead of much accents, from which several always give trouble.

    MvdV>>> Bjrn is right. The 26 letters of the ASCII character set are
    MvdV>>> not enough to properly express oneself in writing. Even for the
    MvdV>>> Brittish it is not enough . No pound sign '' in ASCII...

    You can write UKP for it, no special sign needed ;-).

    The problem with thse acronyms is that they are seldom unique.

    Every body will understand the term: this costs UKP 2.000,00

    Yes, not every one will follow, we have here someone only writing in
    lc. That's a choice others should also respect.

    MvdV> Respect should be a two way street...

    The same as love ;-).

    MvdV> Then maybe you should widen your horizon. Even for DOS reader that can MvdV> change encoding on the fly have been around for a quarter of a century.

    I have never seen that.
    At my BBS there I installed even a full screen editor for the users.
    But I hardly used it myself as it was not so easy to learn.

    MvdV> No excuse..

    You can not ask everyone to learn everything.
    I am glad that I did come so far unless my difficulties (handicaps).

    MvdV>>> For DOS there was also CYRILLIC.COM.
    Even a far from my bed show I have not the energy for.
    MvdV> Just downloading the program and typing CYRILLIC at the DOS prompt did MvdV> the trick.

    I still do not understand that language, and I save my energy for other more pleasant things to do. I already have enough trouble to work at.

    Henri.

    ---
    * Origin: Computing Apart Together (2:280/1208)
  • From Henri Derksen@2:280/1208 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wednesday, June 05, 2019 01:28:00
    Hello Michiel,

    MvdV> A wild goose chase. There is nothing there regarding any Fidonet node MvdV> (s)he supposedly ran. Somebody wasted my valuable time.

    Then you did not read the right links:

    http://www.eveliensnel.com/bbs/bulletin/bull_3.html

    http://www.eveliensnel.com/bbs/bulletin/bull_5.html

    http://www.eveliensnel.com/bbs/bulletin/bull_6.html

    These 3 tell you the whole story.
    From writing FTS1 software PC systems who did not keep to the official standard
    en he had to bypass that with his self written software to exhange mail with FidoNet nodes.
    I think that is much enough proof of it.

    Henri.

    ---
    * Origin: Computing Apart Together (2:280/1208)
  • From Henri Derksen@2:280/1208 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, June 05, 2019 01:34:00
    Hello Bjorn,

    <http://eveliensnel.com/bbs>

    MvdV>> Hmmm. I waded through a few pages.

    <http://evelinsnel.com/cv>

    MvdV>> "Server not found".

    Since the first server obviously was found, can it be that the second
    link was misspelled and should be:

    http://eveliensnel.com/bbs/

    Yes correct, and sory for my type mismatch.

    BF > Just asking, without really being interested...

    I can not ask you to read only Dutch texts.

    Henri.

    ---
    * Origin: Computing Apart Together (2:280/1208)
  • From Henri Derksen@2:280/1208 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wednesday, June 05, 2019 01:34:00
    Hello Michiel,

    MvdV>>> So there was a sysop listed by the name of Evert Snel. That does MvdV>>> not prove he ran an operational Fidonet system on an 8 bit
    MvdV>>> machine does it.

    Look here:
    <http://eveliensnel.com/bbs>

    MvdV> Hmmm. I waded through a few pages. Then I gave up. It is 30 Celsius
    MvdV> here. Too hot to spend much time behind the screen.

    I see.

    you unbelievable Thomas.

    MvdV> "Doubting Thomas".

    That may be, my English is not as good as that from mr. Timmermans.

    MvdV> You wil have to live with that. I am a scientist. I am educated
    MvdV> (indoctrinated if you want) with the basic principle of never accepting MvdV> something as fact just because someone says so.

    Normallyn that is a good point of view.

    MvdV> Every scientist should be a "doubting thomas".

    Yes.

    But in this case I was very sure, because I have seen that software tunning
    at de Acorn BBC computer of Simon Voortman at the AcoNet Sysop Meeting in
    1992 at his home in Ouddorp.ZH.NL.

    And also here:
    <http://evelinsnel.com/cv>

    NvdV> "Server not found".

    Sorry, that should be: eveliensnel.com

    Henri.

    ---
    * Origin: Computing Apart Together (2:280/1208)
  • From Henri Derksen@2:280/1208 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wednesday, June 05, 2019 01:42:00
    Hello Michiel,

    MvdV> I meant what was your point when mentioning the gender change?

    Because she also changed her name.

    MvdV> How is that relevant to the issue that started al this?

    Not everyone would understand that the current Evenlien Snel was the former Evert Snel, so the link would not be made that it was the same person.
    That's why I wrote about that gender change and name change.

    MvdV> Which - if my memory does not fail me -
    MvdV> was the character encoding to be used for Fidonews articles?

    The point was you did not know about the existence of 8 bit fido systems.

    Henri.

    ---
    * Origin: Computing Apart Together (2:280/1208)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Henri Derksen on Wednesday, June 05, 2019 15:49:37
    BF > Just asking, without really being interested...

    I can not ask you to read only Dutch texts.

    Oh, but you can. I can handle Dutch as well as I seem to remember that you do Swedish? 8-)



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Wednesday, June 05, 2019 21:43:20
    Hello Michiel,

    [..]

    you unbelievable Thomas.

    MvdV> "Doubting Thomas".

    MvdV> You wil have to live with that. I am a scientist. I am educated
    MvdV> (indoctrinated if you want) with the basic principle of never accepting
    MvdV> something as fact just because someone says so.

    MvdV> Every scientist should be a "doubting thomas".

    After reading the gospel accounts (as given in the holy book),
    it is clear that none of the apostles believed their beloved had
    come back from the dead. All of them, including Thomas, had to
    be shown.

    To remove doubt would be to do without belief. Which would be
    a travesty, because that is not the way the world works, or the
    world beyond.

    How can one know the facts without belief?

    Belief in science (scientism) can be viewed as a very peculiar
    modern form of autocratic religious zealotry. Wouldn't you agree?

    Do you, as a scientist, consider yourself as being an autocratic
    religious zealot? Many scientists consider themselves as being
    masters of the universe. With only their own peculiar worldview
    being the One True Religion.

    In my view, every scientist should alter their own version of
    reality to that of Non-Objective Reality. After all, nobody can
    be truly objective, unless he/she is The One.

    And also here:
    <http://evelinsnel.com/cv>

    MvdV> "Server not found".

    "Body not found".

    --Doubting Lee

    --
    Your Hole Is Our Goal

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Henri Derksen on Wednesday, June 05, 2019 22:33:57
    Hello Henri,

    On Wednesday June 05 2019 01:34, you wrote to me:

    you unbelievable Thomas.

    MvdV>> "Doubting Thomas".

    That may be, my English is not as good as that from mr. Timmermans.

    Neither is mine, I do not practise enough. I had to get help from Google translate and Wikipedia. I knew that "unbelievable Thomas" wasn't right though.
    "unbelievable Thomas" would be "ongelofelijke Tomas", not "ongelovige Tomas".

    MvdV>> You wil have to live with that. I am a scientist. I am educated
    MvdV>> (indoctrinated if you want) with the basic principle of never
    MvdV>> accepting something as fact just because someone says so.

    Normallyn that is a good point of view.

    Always a good starting point...

    MvdV>> Every scientist should be a "doubting thomas".

    Yes.

    So we agree on that.

    But in this case I was very sure,

    So was Klaas Dijkstra when I met him in the mid sixties. I would not be surprised if there are still some followers of his around, but in the sixties we had an official "flat earth society". "platte aarde vereniging", in The Netherlands. Klaas Dijkstra was the chairman. We - the physics student society-
    once inivited him fo a lecture, very entertaining. ;-)

    because I have seen that software tunning at de Acorn BBC computer of

    Klaas Dijkstra also claimed he had seen for himself that the earth is flat. Having lived in Friesland myself, I am not all that suprised. It *does* look awfully flat there...

    Sorry Henri, I was indoctrinated with: "never accept anything as fact just because someone says so". No exception for people who say they are very sure...
    :-)

    Simon Voortman at the AcoNet Sysop Meeting in 1992 at his home in Ouddorp.ZH.NL.

    OK...

    And also here:
    <http://evelinsnel.com/cv>

    NvdV>> "Server not found".

    Sorry, that should be: eveliensnel.com

    Yeah, I got thet now...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Henri Derksen on Thursday, June 06, 2019 14:26:58
    Hello Henri,

    On Wednesday June 05 2019 01:58, you wrote to me:

    You can write e'e'n in stead, no special apostrophes needed ;-).

    MvdV>> I can, but it looks awfull.

    I donot care for that very few occasion.

    But I do. And other readers may as well. Displeasing the readers of your writings may make them use the "next key" next time.

    MvdV>> Plus that if I need to encase it in quotes,
    MvdV>> reading becomes a parsing contest: 'e'e'n'. Can you parse
    MvdV>> "'e'e'n'"?

    Why should it be enclosed in quotes?

    To differentiate between text quoted form someone else and one's own text of course/

    Toen ik hem vroeg hoeveel, was zijn antwoord: "e'e'n rookgordijn".

    Toen ik hem vroeg hoeveel, was zijn antwoord een rookgordijn.

    You can write Ro"el, no special apostrophes needed ;-).

    MvdV>> I can write it. In the sense that with some effort I can push
    MvdV>> the required keys in my keyboard.

    And I have problems to find the right keys for that High ASCII
    character I seldom use.

    1) "High ASCII" is a misnomer. Characters outside the range specified by ASCII are not an alternate flavour of ASCII. Ther are not Red Ascii, not Blue ASCII, not Left ASCII, not Right ASCII, not low ASCII and not High ASCII.

    2) Just install the proper keyboard and display drivers. Even under DOS this is
    very easy. Here it woks exactly as the old typewriters with dead keys for the accents and tremas. Very easy.

    Besides that, on many machines it is something else for that
    character, no thanks. Almost no keyboard is the same ;-(.

    That is what keyboard drivers were invented for: to MAKE then the same. All the
    keyboards here in my house are the same. That keyboards in another country may
    look different do no affect me.

    MvdV>> But when I see "Ro"el" I have to think very hard to extract the
    MvdV>> meaning. Plus that search algoritms will not work with this
    MvdV>> encoding.

    That's just a much better privacy lock ;-).

    Huh?

    MvdV>> Googling "Rol" and "Ro"el" give very different results.

    You opposed not te be found by Google.

    Not for everything. I do not want to share everything with everyone. Does not mean I want NOTHING to be found.

    At the basis school I learned that the trema means a split before
    the character it is placed on. So Ro"el is correct and Roe"l is
    wrong.

    MvdV>> So you say. But my guess is that that is just your opinion and
    MvdV>> not fact learned at school.

    It was explicitely explained where the word should be splitted,
    i.e. before the letter with the trema on it.

    Be that as it may be, I don't think you were taught the alternative spelling of
    Ro"e...

    Sorry, I have never seen it spelled as "Ro"el" anywhere, Always as "Rol".

    MvdV>> When I learned to read at school there were no computers ans
    MvdV>> ASCII did not exist yet.

    That has nothing to do with it. The trema is needed to split the pronounciation between the two vowels, you normally speach out as one sound.

    Exactly! The trema is NEEDED!. It is not just a fad, it is needed to properly express what one wants to say. You can not just dispense with them without losing information.

    MvdV>> Dutch typewrites could deal witg accents and tremas in the
    MvdV>> proper way. Encodeing ano with trema as the sequence ""o" or
    MvdV>> "o"" was totally unheard of.

    Of course no one wrote the trema before a letter, but just above.

    So why sould I do it different just because I now use a computer instead of an antique machanical typewriter?

    The Duth "y with dots are mostly spelled as two characters "ij"

    MvdV>> That is not how I learned it in elementary school. On
    MvdV>> Roggeveen's "Aap, noot mies" leesplankje yje "ij" in "Gijs" was
    MvdV>> one letter:

    MvdV>> https://www.knutselstore.nl/diamond-painting/diamond-painting-aa
    MvdV>> p-noot- mies-40x60/

    I have never seen that at our schools.

    Really? Were they gone that soon?

    MvdV>> And that is how I learned to write it. ONE letter, written
    MvdV>> without lifting the pen from the paper.

    We also learned to write the y in two letters without lifting the pen
    from the paper.

    If the pen was not lifted from the paer in what way was the writing different from writing it as one letter?

    I only saw that single character after I left my 5 schools I have been
    on.

    Changing school that often seems to not have learned you more...

    MvdV>> Writing it as a the digraph 'ij' was a consession to
    MvdV>> internationalisation when the market was flooded with
    MvdV>> foreign typewriters not supporting the Dutch concatenated 'ij'

    My Swiss made typewriter Hermes 3000 from 1975 indeed does not have.

    Of couse. The concatenated ij is not part of any of the four Swiss kanguages. But you were born and raised in The Netherlands were you? Ans so most of your writinhs wre in Dutch wereb;t they? So why did you buy a Swiss typewriter instaed of a good solid Dutch one? Buy local remember?

    MvdV>> Yet there are EU countries were Cyrillic is the alfabet for the
    MvdV>> native Language. North Macedonia and Bulgaria come to mind. It
    MvdV>> is not all that far. You can het there in your own car without
    MvdV>> needing a passport.

    I have not the energy for to learn.

    MvdV>> Pity. But you can't block the rest of Fidonet just because of
    MvdV>> that...

    You are also going to learn at least the 2000 characters in Chinese or Japanes, Thay etc.?

    We are discussing character sets in Fidonet. Presently there are no Chinese or Japanese participants in Fidonet. But there are a lot of Russians...

    MvdV>>>> Bjrn is right. The 26 letters of the ASCII character set are
    MvdV>>>> not enough to properly express oneself in writing. Even for
    MvdV>>>> the Brittish it is not enough . No pound sign '' in ASCII...

    You can write UKP for it, no special sign needed ;-).

    The problem with thse acronyms is that they are seldom unique.

    Every body will understand the term: this costs UKP 2.000,00

    Are you sure? Will every body (sic!) understand this mixed representation? How much is it really? "two" or "two thousand"? "2.000,0" is not a well formed decimal expression in the Anglosaxon world. So why should one lay the link with
    the Pound Sterling"

    "Everyone" understands ''. Not everyone understands "UKP".

    MvdV>> No excuse..

    You can not ask everyone to learn everything.

    But you want me to learn your exotic alternate spelling of accents, umlauts and
    tremas...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Jeff Smith@1:282/1031 to Michiel Van Der Vlist on Tuesday, June 04, 2019 06:06:52
    Hello Michiel,

    According to the Weather buro the minimum temerature was -0.1 deg C
    and the max was 5.2 deg C
    If there is something in my blood it is ethylene-glycol, as not all
    rooms were heated.
    Your turn. ;)

    I know when and where I was born. I am not nosy enough to spend time to find out what the weather was then and there.

    I was born in Minneapolis at 12:03 am during a severe thunderstorm. The temp was around 78F or 25C. I have liked and been fascinated with non destructive severe storms ever since. As an adult I have become a severe weather spotter for the NWS (National Weather Service) here in the US.


    Jeff

    --- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
    * Origin: Fidoneet: The Ouija Board - Anoka, MN -bbs.ouijabrd.net (1:282/1031)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Henri Derksen on Thursday, June 06, 2019 15:46:59
    Hello Henri,

    On Wednesday June 05 2019 01:28, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> A wild goose chase. There is nothing there regarding any Fidonet
    MvdV>> node (s)he supposedly ran. Somebody wasted my valuable time.

    Then you did not read the right links:

    The "wild goose chase" referred to the link to the CV.

    http://www.eveliensnel.com/bbs/bulletin/bull_3.html

    http://www.eveliensnel.com/bbs/bulletin/bull_5.html

    http://www.eveliensnel.com/bbs/bulletin/bull_6.html

    These 3 tell you the whole story.
    From writing FTS1 software PC systems who did not keep to the official standard en he had to bypass that with his self written software

    Of course we have only HIS word that the problems were due to OTHERS not following standards. It is not the first time in the history of Fdioet that such claims were made..

    to exhange mail with FidoNet nodes. I think that is much enough proof
    of it.

    I did read that part. Folowed by: "he gave up". So what does that prove?

    No, I am not going to wade through it again. Next time please just don't give 20 pages to wade through, give the exact paragraph(s) where to look, instead of
    having to read all the babble..


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Henri Derksen on Thursday, June 06, 2019 15:42:44
    Hello Henri,

    On Wednesday June 05 2019 01:42, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Which - if my memory does not fail me -
    MvdV>> was the character encoding to be used for Fidonews articles?

    The point was you did not know about the existence of 8 bit fido
    systems.

    You should have directed it to Bj"orn. He was the one claiming that "Fidonet was and always has been a DOS based".


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Henri Derksen@2:280/1208 to Michiel van der Vlist on Friday, June 07, 2019 15:59:00
    Hello Michiel,

    MvdV>>> A wild goose chase. There is nothing there regarding any Fidonet MvdV>>> node (s)he supposedly ran. Somebody wasted my valuable time.

    Then you did not read the right links:

    MvdV> The "wild goose chase" referred to the link to the CV.

    That was the second less important link, I made a mistake in it.

    http://www.eveliensnel.com/bbs/bulletin/bull_3.html
    http://www.eveliensnel.com/bbs/bulletin/bull_5.html
    http://www.eveliensnel.com/bbs/bulletin/bull_6.html
    These 3 tell you the whole story.
    From writing FTS1 software PC systems who did not keep to the official HD>> standard en he had to bypass that with his self written software

    MvdV> Of course we have only HIS word that the problems were due to OTHERS not MvdV> following standards. It is not the first time in the history of Fdioet MvdV> that such claims were made..

    I know, but I am sure the are software pakackages that do not folluw 100 % exactly the written protocol as defined in the FTSC standaards.
    I.e. one makes it perfectly working at an 80186 machine,
    but at an 80286 machine the timings are different,
    so the time out comes sooner that it does not work anymore the same as before. More ugly is software that does not follow the standard, what often happends when programming bad.

    One programmer writing a Point package for RISC OS wanted to test links with
    my FrontDoor, and he came to the same conclusion that FD did not follow the standard.
    But I also know of errors at the side of that both programmers.
    The second one f.i. deleted a a good working protocol in the next version of his package, for strange reasons.

    to exhange mail with FidoNet nodes. I think that is much enough proof
    of it.

    MvdV> I did read that part.

    MvdV> Folowed by: "he gave up". So what does that prove?

    That he at least has tried to get it working despite not 100 % following the documented protol, but to change it, to get it working.
    He gave up because of political reasons.
    It was a one way love, and that does never hold on for long.
    It does prove he had a working 8 bit fido connection.
    Otherwise he could not exchange mail with his fellow FidoNetters.

    Lateron (s)he accidently deleted his software, and had to write it again.
    Since then it was not FTS0001 compliant anymore ;-(.
    Stupid to no not make backups of such important software created at a long testing period. If only a print out version could also be a backup.
    Typing in is much work, write again from scratch is much more ;-(.

    MvdV> No, I am not going to wade through it again. Next time please just don't MvdV> give 20 pages to wade through, give the exact paragraph(s) where to
    MvdV> look, instead of having to read all the babble..

    Sorry for giving the wrong links in the first time.
    I can ask Simon Voortman if he still has that old 8 bit BBCscan software.
    He is a much better programmer than Evert Snel was.

    Greetings from Henri.

    ---
    * Origin: Default is your fault, take UniCorn BBS (2:280/1208)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tuesday, June 04, 2019 00:50:32
    Hello Michiel!

    03 Jun 19 22:43, you wrote to me:

    It was a nice spring day. Yesterday I returned from a three day
    meeting with R24 Fidonutters. Almost the whole trip from Frankfurt
    over Hannover to my place, the car thermometer indicated 33 deg C.

    MvdV> You were born in the tropics. You have cooling fluid in your blood. ;-)

    I was born 52.071857 N 4.272893 E near the end of the year.
    According to the Weather buro the minimum temerature was -0.1 deg C and
    the max was 5.2 deg C

    If there is something in my blood it is ethylene-glycol, as not all rooms
    were heated.

    Your turn. ;)

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Kees van Eeten on Tuesday, June 04, 2019 12:16:00
    Hello Kees,

    On Tuesday June 04 2019 00:50, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> You were born in the tropics. You have cooling fluid in your
    MvdV>> blood. ;-)

    I was born 52.071857 N 4.272893 E near the end of the year.

    Oops. So you just lived there for a while?

    According to the Weather buro the minimum temerature was -0.1 deg C
    and the max was 5.2 deg C

    If there is something in my blood it is ethylene-glycol, as not all
    rooms were heated.

    Your turn. ;)

    I know when and where I was born. I am not nosy enough to spend time to find out what the weather was then and there.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tuesday, June 04, 2019 13:47:36
    Hello Michiel!

    04 Jun 19 12:16, you wrote to me:

    I was born 52.071857 N 4.272893 E near the end of the year.

    MvdV> Oops. So you just lived there for a while?

    I think from 1950 till August 1958 when I had to attend secondary school.

    According to the Weather buro the minimum temerature was -0.1 deg C
    and the max was 5.2 deg C

    MvdV> I know when and where I was born. I am not nosy enough to spend time to
    MvdV> find out what the weather was then and there.

    I just asked Google for "knmi temperatuur <month> <year>",
    not for the temperature at the location.

    For the coordinates I have mapping software that I use when travelling.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Kees van Eeten@2:280/5003.4 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tuesday, June 04, 2019 14:04:12
    Hello Michiel!

    04 Jun 19 12:16, you wrote to me:

    I was born 52.071857 N 4.272893 E near the end of the year.

    MvdV> Oops. So you just lived there for a while?

    This was the last house we lived in 0.589271 N 101.441406 E

    What amazes me is that it seems the house is still there. The neighbourhood
    got extend as well as the roads to other locations. It still brings back
    a lot of memories when I look at the Google pictures. For that district
    they got better and better over time. How nive would it be if Google
    street view would be invited on the compound.

    At the time we lived there, we were not fenced in. But there was also no way
    to get there, other then by river boat.

    Kees

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
    * Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)
  • From Henri Derksen@2:280/1208 to Björn Felten on Tuesday, May 28, 2019 02:30:00
    Hello Bjorn,

    MvdV>> I suggest the editor accepts only articles encoded in UTF-8 and
    MvdV>> patches his software to use a "CHRS UTF-8 4" kludge.

    Yeah, right. That would surely increase the number of contributions.

    At my UniCorn BBS Dos 5 machine CP437 is used,
    and at my RISC OS 5.23 ip system, Raspberry Pi 1B2 with !ROSBink,
    characterset ISO Latin 8859-1,
    same as at my !WimpLink Point 1 system, RiscPC, at the Acorn RISC PC.
    UTF8 is only possible here when I will start using my Raspberry Pi with Raspbian Stretch Linux and Husky software. I donot know when ready.
    At this moment I donot like the UTF 8 circus.
    So if contributing FidoNews is restricted to UTF8 only,
    it will sure decrease your input.

    Henri.

    ---
    * Origin: Computing Apart Together (2:280/1208)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Henri Derksen on Tuesday, May 28, 2019 23:36:13
    Hello Henri,

    On Tuesday May 28 2019 02:30, you wrote to Bjrn Felten:

    At this moment I donot like the UTF 8 circus.

    Well, I don't like the Tower of Bable circus with Code Pages. So what we have in common is that we have something we do not like.

    So if contributing FidoNews is restricted to UTF8 only, it will sure decrease your input.

    So simple submit your contribution in ASCII only. ASCII is a subset of UTF-8, so it will be accepted.

    Just help me refresh my memory: how many article did you submit so far?


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)