• 'It Can't Happen Here'

    From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to All on Wednesday, July 17, 2019 18:51:34
    OMG, it's dead on.

    http://felten.se/prediction.jpg

    The above back-cover is from a book from 1935 by Sinclair Lewis.


    "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."

    -- Mark Twain



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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, July 17, 2019 22:51:20
    Hello Bjrn,

    OMG, it's dead on.

    Really? You think so?

    http://felten.se/prediction.jpg


    The above back-cover is from a book from 1935 by Sinclair Lewis.

    Yes. I do believe you are right about that.
    But what happened to the first part?

    http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301001h.html


    Ah! There it is! The whole story! Minus the back cover ...

    "Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."

    -- Mark Twain

    And I had always thought "1984" was fiction ...

    --Lee

    --
    Big Or Small We Lay Them All

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Bjrn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Wednesday, July 17, 2019 23:28:05
    OMG, it's dead on.

    Really? You think so?

    Yeup. Don't you?

    But what happened to the first part?

    What first part?

    http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301001h.html

    Thanks for that. Have you read it yet?

    Ah! There it is! The whole story! Minus the back cover ...

    It sure is! What a treat.

    And I had always thought "1984" was fiction ...

    It was. By then. But now is now and far from then.






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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bj÷rn Felten on Saturday, July 20, 2019 00:55:55
    Hello Bjrn,

    OMG, it's dead on.

    Really? You think so?

    Yeup. Don't you?

    Yep. Unless it is a fake cover for a real story.

    But what happened to the first part?

    What first part?

    The one between the covers.

    http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301001h.html

    Thanks for that. Have you read it yet?

    Yep. Have it on ereader for easy access. As well as a number
    of other good reads.

    Ah! There it is! The whole story! Minus the back cover ...

    It sure is! What a treat.

    Although it was published in 1935, much of what Lewis was writing
    about is relevant today. He uses fiction in order to explore the
    human condition, showing how we make decisions and why we act the
    way we do.

    And I had always thought "1984" was fiction ...

    It was. By then. But now is now and far from then.

    Both of these novels have been cited in comparison with Trump.
    Each for different reasons.

    One can easily see the relationship between Orwell's vision of
    authoritarian rule and Trump's liking for dictators. Orwell wrote
    his story after the events of WWII, presenting it as a dark satire
    based on that reality. Quickly written, published in 1949, it was
    more of an essay than a novel/book.

    Lewis' story is more compelling, and better written, as he shows
    in more detail how decisions are made, and why people act and do the
    things they do.

    Lewis' novel was published in 1935, before WWII. The USA was
    becoming more and more isolationist, wanting no part in what went
    on anywhere else around the world. The same conditions existed
    then as now for the want of a demagogue. Back then, Huey P. Long
    fit the bill. What we have today in the USA is a modern day
    Huey P. Long.

    What Lewis is showing is that we are largely ignorant. Ignorant
    and unknowing. This was true in his day, and it remains true today.

    There are times we do not know we are ignorant. When we act out
    of ignorance, not realizing what we do, who is to blame?

    There are times we recognize our ignorance, and do it anyway.
    When we act out in this way, who is to blame?

    What Lewis is saying, through the characters he creates in his
    novel, is that ignorance is only important if whatever expected
    consequences are significant. Otherwise, what does it matter?

    Which gives us all the perfect excuse to be totally ignorant without consequence.

    --Lee

    --
    Sleep With Someone New

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  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to Björn Felten on Monday, August 05, 2019 06:59:28
    On 17 Jul 2019, Bjrn Felten said the following...

    OMG, it's dead on.

    http://felten.se/prediction.jpg

    It's 180 degrees in the opposite direction, how do you explain all the success that Donald Trump has provided through his leadership, the economy is pretty great here in America. Trade deals and the stubborn Chinese are forced to pay Billions. Mexico is guarding their south with thousands of their own
    military, that has never happened before.

    So no, I do not think your newspaper clipping stands up, I think it falls flat and makes what your trying to say looking like a fool.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/64)
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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854.1 to Gregory Deyss on Monday, August 05, 2019 08:59:02
    So no, I do not think your newspaper clipping stands up, I think it falls flat and makes what your trying to say looking like a fool.

    I just spent about a month in the greater Yakima area, Washington. It seemed to me Spanish is the main language there.

    Plus I encounter less and less hardcore Trump supporters.

    The economy doing great is a mantra.

    Ward
    --- AfterShock/Android 1.6.8
    * Origin: Baby-Glacier (2:292/854.1)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Gregory Deyss on Monday, August 05, 2019 15:36:14
    On 2019 Aug 05 06:59:28, you wrote to Bjrn Felten:

    OMG, it's dead on.

    http://felten.se/prediction.jpg

    It's 180 degrees in the opposite direction, how do you explain all the success that Donald Trump has provided through his leadership,

    what success? the success he's had a taking $$$ from US citizens and lining his
    own pockets with? the $$$ he's spending on his golfing at his own courses that
    he bitched about obama doing?

    the economy is pretty great here in America.

    the economy is sucking dog turds through plastic straws...

    Trade deals and the stubborn Chinese are forced to pay Billions.

    no they're not... WE are paying those tariffs... all trump did was make the cost of those products go up and since we have to pay the cost, guess who suffers... certainly not the chinese...

    What is a tariff and who pays it?
    Tariffs are a tax on imports. They are paid by U.S.-registered firms to U.S. customs for the goods they import into the United States. Importers often pass the costs of tariffs on to customers - manufacturers and consumers in the United States - by raising their prices.


    )\/(ark

    Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set
    them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them. ... The narrower the mind, the broader the statement.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to Ward Dossche on Wednesday, August 07, 2019 06:42:18
    On 05 Aug 2019, Ward Dossche said the following...

    So no, I do not think your newspaper clipping stands up, I think it f flat and makes what your trying to say looking like a fool.

    I just spent about a month in the greater Yakima area, Washington. It seemed to me Spanish is the main language there.

    Plus I encounter less and less hardcore Trump supporters.

    We are all hardcore, but there is no such thing as someone in a maga hat
    going out of his/her to attack someone wearing democratic garb that exist for one of the 20+ candidates who are running for President.

    Did you enjoy your time in Washington state? You say you spent a month there, so I assume you did. or it might of been all business leaving little time for pleasure.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Wednesday, August 07, 2019 13:06:29
    The economy doing great is a mantra.

    It's probably no coincident that the gold price has been going up steadily for more than a year, more than 5% in just 30 days. The new interest rate and Trump's escalated trade war with the world is showing:

    https://goldprice.org/

    Only today it went up more than 1% so far. That's huge on a market that rarely see more than fractions of a percentage per day. More and more major investors are selling out their dollars before it crashes completely. And they have to do it a small step at a time, to recover most of their losses.


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  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to mark lewis on Wednesday, August 07, 2019 07:15:20
    On 05 Aug 2019, mark lewis said the following...

    On 2019 Aug 05 06:59:28, you wrote to Bjrn Felten:

    OMG, it's dead on.

    http://felten.se/prediction.jpg

    It's 180 degrees in the opposite direction, how do you explain all th success that Donald Trump has provided through his leadership,

    what success? the success he's had a taking $$$ from US citizens and lining his own pockets with? the $$$ he's spending on his golfing at his own courses that he bitched about obama doing?

    Yes he does play golf, but that's the thing about this President.
    You can have your cake and eat it too when you get things done.

    With Obama he did also golf, but did not get much done and he was in office
    for 8 years.

    no they're not... WE are paying those tariffs... all trump did was make the cost of those products go up and since we have to pay the cost,
    guess who suffers... certainly not the chinese...

    Sure they are and the Chinese are not happy about either, this is also why
    they are devaluing their currency again as they have done for years, to try
    to counter the tariffs.

    ml> What is a tariff and who pays it?
    Tariffs are a tax on imports. They are paid by U.S.-registered firms to U.S. customs for the goods they import into the United States. Importers often pass the costs of tariffs on to customers - manufacturers and consumers in the United States - by raising their prices.

    Easy. Have these U.S. registered firms make it here in the United States and there will not be any tariffs. There is many benefits to buying American made products, no questionable chemicals used, there has been many reports over the years, everything from toys to pet food causing tragedy w/ fatal results. Majority of the time Chinese products that are made so cheaply that they do not last. We do not need them, they need us.

    There will be fairness within the trade deals or they will continue to face economic ruin which will lead to more despair for the Chinese.
    For years past administrations and their clowns within their control allowed this.

    President Trump stands defiant and is not going to allow this nation to be played like in years gone by.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Gregory Deyss on Wednesday, August 07, 2019 13:26:36
    President Trump stands defiant and is not going to allow this nation to be played like in years gone by.

    You obviously is one of the few Trump hugging fanatics remaining. Many of your former like-minded have already seen, that the Emperor has no clothes.



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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to All on Wednesday, August 07, 2019 14:16:13
    The new interest rate and Trump's escalated trade war with the world is showing:

    https://goldprice.org/

    It's really interesting to watch this live. You can clearly see how major --
    most likely foreign, such as China, OPEC, Japan and maybe even Russia has a tiny portfolio left(?) -- investors are selling out. The price goes up.

    Then US banks, mostly the FED I guess, desperately tries to counteract, but then immediately the foreigners take advantage of this, and the price goes up again.

    There's no way that the dollar protectors will win this race IMHO. Soon all the gold held by them (even the gold they claim to have but really don't) will be depleted, and the dollar will go into a free fall spiral.



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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Gregory Deyss on Wednesday, August 07, 2019 15:34:11
    We are all hardcore, but there is no such thing as someone in a maga hat going out of his/her to attack someone wearing democratic garb that exist for one of the 20+ candidates who are running for President.

    The inventor of the maga-hat did it himself in the aftermath of shootings #249 250 and 251 blaming it on the Democrats.

    Did you enjoy your time in Washington state? You say you spent a month there, so I assume you did. or it might of been all business leaving
    little time for pleasure.

    For years I've been donating time and effort to the Boy Scouts of America. I owe them a lot.

    The whole month of July I worked at Camp Fife BSA in Goose Prairie Washington between Yakima and Mount Rainier. Extremely nice countryside but no phone service, no power, no internet and when banks and businesses make you switch to
    the internet for whatever need you have, it becomes tough. Being disconnected is nice, but not for a month.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to All on Wednesday, August 07, 2019 17:19:42
    https://goldprice.org/

    Only today it went up more than 1% so far.

    It's not even 12:00 NY time and it's now already up 2.1%. I wonder how this day will end...



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  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, August 07, 2019 10:58:00
    Bjrn Felten wrote to All <=-

    https://goldprice.org/

    Only today it went up more than 1% so far.

    It's not even 12:00 NY time and it's now already up 2.1%. I
    wonder how this day will end...

    Very likely that it will end with a sunset in the west.

    And guess what?! It will rise in the east tomorrow morning!

    THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!

    Financial markets aren't supposed to go up and down! <EYEROLL>



    ... A day without sunshine is like night.
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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Dan Clough on Wednesday, August 07, 2019 18:56:39
    THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!

    Maybe not the sky, but the dollar. And it was the Trump that made it happen.



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  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, August 07, 2019 13:13:03
    Re: The Trump economy is doing great
    By: Bjrn Felten to Dan Clough on Wed Aug 07 2019 18:56:39

    THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!

    Maybe not the sky, but the dollar. And it was the Trump that made it
    happen.

    that so he can become a trillionaire... doesn't understand that at that point, it'll be thousands of $$$ for a loaf of bread... it is like that in some places
    already... take a wheelbarrow to the market for a few moldy biscuits if they even have any that are still edible...

    )\/(ark
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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Wednesday, August 07, 2019 19:32:51
    take a wheelbarrow to the market for a few moldy biscuits if they even have any that are still edible...

    Unless you have some gold stached away. You can probably buy the entire supermarket for just a few small bullions...



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  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Bjrn Felten on Wednesday, August 07, 2019 19:31:33
    Hi Bjrn,

    On 2019-08-07 13:06:29, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    It's probably no coincident that the gold price has been going up steadily for more than a year, more than 5% in just 30 days. The new interest rate and Trump's escalated trade war with the world is showing:

    https://goldprice.org/

    Only today it went up more than 1% so far. That's huge on a market that rarely see more than fractions of a percentage per day. More and more
    major
    investors are selling out their dollars before it crashes completely. And they have to do it a small step at a time, to recover most of their
    losses.

    You're confusing the dollar rate (against other currencies) with the gold rate.
    There isn't a one to one relation between the two. Currently the gold rate (and that of other precious metals) is going up in all currencies. In the dollar, the Euro (good for us), and even more in the Chinese renminbi, that was
    devaluated. And that's one of the reasons why it's going up. The Chinese people aren't allowed to buy foreign currencies, but they can buy precious metals. So when a currency devaluates it's smart to have precious metals instead of that currency, so Chinese people are buying, which makes the price go up.

    The dollar rate is still quite stable. This is mainly because of the petro-dollar: the fact that oil and other commodoties are traded solely in dollars. So the world needs a lot of dollars to buy those goods. So the USofA can almost print as much dollars as they like, without it making the value go down. And because of this keep this large deficit and national debt going up at
    these ridiculous rates.

    Wars are faught about this. When Saddam Hussein threatened to sell Irak's oil for other currencies than the dollar he was removed from power with some lame excuse about weapons of mass destruction. And now Iran is threatening to sell its oil to China in exchange for Renminbi's instead of dollars and see what's happening...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
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  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, August 07, 2019 16:14:17
    Re: The Trump economy is doing great
    By: Bjrn Felten to mark lewis on Wed Aug 07 2019 19:32:51

    take a wheelbarrow to the market for a few moldy biscuits if they even
    have any that are still edible...

    Unless you have some gold stached away. You can probably buy the entire
    supermarket for just a few small bullions...

    that's now... above i'm speaking of what will be happening once they finishing destroying everything and drive the dollar into the shit...

    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.08-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Thursday, August 08, 2019 03:40:46
    Hello Bjrn,

    https://goldprice.org/

    Only today it went up more than 1% so far.

    It's not even 12:00 NY time and it's now already up 2.1%. I wonder how
    this
    day will end...

    We are morphing from tariff wars into currency wars. Investors
    are shifting their investments from stocks and real estate into
    precious metals, creating an imbalance. With China devaluating
    the yuan, with the yuan tied to the dollar, this is exactly what
    should have been expected to happen.

    The only question is, how long will it continue before the
    bottom falls out? In theory, the strongest economy will win
    out. Even if everybody loses.

    But who says the USA has the strongest economy?

    --Lee

    --
    Everybody Loves Our Buns

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Thursday, August 08, 2019 03:40:58
    Hello Ward,

    We are all hardcore, but there is no such thing as someone in a maga hat
    going out of his/her to attack someone wearing democratic garb that exist
    for one of the 20+ candidates who are running for President.

    The inventor of the maga-hat did it himself in the aftermath of shootings #249 250 and 251 blaming it on the Democrats.

    There is no question we have a sick society. But the USA is not
    alone. Norway had a fellow who went off the rails wiping out 60+
    kids as his means of protest. And none of them were black, brown,
    or Mexican.

    Did you enjoy your time in Washington state? You say you spent a month
    there, so I assume you did. or it might of been all business leaving
    little time for pleasure.

    For years I've been donating time and effort to the Boy Scouts of America.
    I
    owe them a lot.

    I was a Boy Scout. Once upon a time. And remember those times
    quite well. Glad you were able to be a part of it. Makes the world
    a better place for us all.

    The Boy Scouts of America no longer exists, now that girls can
    also play. The Scouts of America is all-inclusive, unlike the days
    of old. But the Girl Scouts of America are still around, with no
    boys allowed. So girls can have it both ways, quite unlike boys.
    Terribly unfair, but thems the rulz. On the other hand, maybe it
    is best to let the girls keep selling those Girl Scout cookies ...

    The whole month of July I worked at Camp Fife BSA in Goose Prairie Washington between Yakima and Mount Rainier. Extremely nice countryside
    but
    no phone service, no power, no internet and when banks and businesses make you switch to the internet for whatever need you have, it becomes tough. Being disconnected is nice, but not for a month.

    I have friends down the bayou who have lived there for years without
    phone, power, internet, or much of anything else. Kind of like rocks,
    with no intention of leaving anytime soon.

    --Lee

    --
    We Put Big Loads In Tight Places

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Thursday, August 08, 2019 03:41:09
    Hello Bjrn,

    THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!

    Maybe not the sky, but the dollar. And it was the Trump that made it
    happen.

    Yes. The dollar will fall.
    But not before the euro.
    Long live the British pound!

    --Lee

    --
    It Ain't Payday If It Ain't Nuts In Your Mouth

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Lee Lofaso on Thursday, August 08, 2019 03:58:40
    There is no question we have a sick society. But the USA is not
    alone. Norway had a fellow who went off the rails wiping out 60+
    kids as his means of protest. And none of them were black, brown,
    or Mexican.

    That was a single event over 8 years ago.

    The USA has had over 250 shootings alone this year.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99
    * Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)
  • From Bjrn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Thursday, August 08, 2019 09:45:09
    Yes. The dollar will fall.
    But not before the euro.

    That can very well happen, but only because the FED has so much gold deposited by around 60 Central Banks throughout the world in their vaults, that
    I doubt they will hesitate to use themselves.

    Many currencies are so intertwined they'll probably all fall together.

    Long live the British pound!

    I doubt that it will survive much longer than any other major currency, even
    though BoE also has a lot of deposited gold from other countries. They e.g. just recently denied Venezuela from getting their gold repatriated on demand --
    seemingly after pressure by the Trump administration.




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  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to Björn Felten on Thursday, August 08, 2019 06:51:31
    On 07 Aug 2019, Bjrn Felten said the following...

    President Trump stands defiant and is not going to allow this nation played like in years gone by.

    You obviously is one of the few Trump hugging fanatics remaining.
    Many of your former like-minded have already seen, that the Emperor has
    no clothes.

    We are far from few, the world will find out after election day what the numbers are, I can guarantee you, we are far from the few.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)
  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to Ward Dossche on Thursday, August 08, 2019 07:16:59
    On 07 Aug 2019, Ward Dossche said the following...

    We are all hardcore, but there is no such thing as someone in a maga h going out of his/her to attack someone wearing democratic garb that ex for one of the 20+ candidates who are running for President.

    The inventor of the maga-hat did it himself in the aftermath of
    shootings #249 250 and 251 blaming it on the Democrats.

    There were many tragedies under Obama, no one blamed him, it was the right
    call then, just as it wrong to blame this Presidents for the recent events.
    A madman with a gun tried to murder several Republican politicians at a baseball game in a public park, no one called for gun control then.

    Did you enjoy your time in Washington state?
    For years I've been donating time and effort to the Boy Scouts of
    America. I owe them a lot.

    Ahh I see and I do understand, I too was in BSA, spent many years at the Rotary Scout Reservation, in East Poestenkill, 3 or so miles from where I
    grew up.

    I was at the very ceremony that joined the Governor Clinton Council with
    other councils forming the Twin Rivers Council. It involved a larger then life loose square knot; at that moment that the square was pulled tight the new council was formed. I was also tapped out for Order of the Arrow, an experience I will never ever forget. The night of my ordeal the sky opened up and it poured the hardest as well as the coldest rain that I have ever known.

    My son was also in scouting as well, allowing me to re-live my childhood through his new experiences.

    I have been to Camp Saratoga, and Boy Haven in Rock City Falls, NY both now private land, such a shame too see what has become of those properties and what even BSA has become now a days.

    I owe BSA a lot as well.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Thursday, August 08, 2019 12:42:17
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Thursday August 08 2019 09:45, you wrote to Lee Lofaso:

    Yes. The dollar will fall.
    But not before the euro.

    That can very well happen, but only because the FED has so much gold deposited by around 60 Central Banks throughout the world in their
    vaults, that I doubt they will hesitate to use themselves.

    Imagine one night a scorcerer turns all the gold in the vaults into led. What will happen? Nothing of course. Not right away. Next morning it will be bussines as usual. As long as nobody looks and everyone still believes what is in there is valuable, nothing will happen... Until someone takes a look and finds out... then all hell will break loose.

    You know what... it has already happened. Gold has little or no intrinsic value. It has value just because the vast majority of people believes it is valuable. Not much different from those pieces of paper showing Dollar, Euro, Rubel or Yuang signs.

    One can not eat gold. As an industrial material it is pretty useless. It has low electrical resistance but it is not strong enough to make electrical cables
    and it is heavier than aluminium for the same Meter/Ohm. It has high inertia against corrosion in daily life which makes it suitable for jewelry, but that is about it. Even for paving roads it is no good. Too slippery and it wears off
    to quickly.

    Gold has little more intrinsic value than many other common metals. Humanity just has not discovered that fact. Wait until the great famine returns and someone tries to trade his inedible gold for food...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Michiel van der Vlist on Thursday, August 08, 2019 13:38:47
    Hi Michiel,

    On 2019-08-08 12:42:17, you wrote to Bjrn Felten:

    MvdV> You know what... it has already happened. Gold has little or no
    MvdV> intrinsic value. It has value just because the vast majority of
    MvdV> people believes it is valuable. Not much different from those pieces
    MvdV> of paper showing Dollar, Euro, Rubel or Yuang signs.

    The value of gold is also determined by the fact it is hard to get (mine), and there is relatively little of it on earth compared to other elements.

    The paper money is much easier to create, or those numbers in your bank account
    can be created at no effort at all, by a push of the button.

    So maybe you think gold has little intrinsic value. The intrinsic value of those numbers in your bankaccount is 0.

    MvdV> Gold has little more intrinsic value than many other common metals.
    MvdV> Humanity just has not discovered that fact. Wait until the great
    MvdV> famine returns and someone tries to trade his inedible gold for
    MvdV> food...

    If that happens I rather have gold than numbers in a bankaccount, of a bank that no longer excists...


    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Wilfred van Velzen on Friday, August 09, 2019 12:24:38
    Hello Wilfred,

    On Thursday August 08 2019 13:38, you wrote to me:

    The value of gold is also determined by the fact it is hard to get
    (mine), and there is relatively little of it on earth compared to
    other elements.

    Gold is relatively rare, not only on earth, but in the universe as a whole. When the universe became transparent, some 300000 years after the Bing Bang, there was only hydrogen. Heavier elements were produced much later by nuclear fusion inside stars. This process can go on until the formation of iron. Beyond
    that it /takes/ energy to form heavier elements. Iron is at the bottom of the nuclear energy well. Heavier elements are formed as as side product when stars explode as suspernovas at the end of their life. The heavier the element, the more rare.

    Gold is rare. but not as rare as platinum. Even more are rare palladium and irridium. Mining was hard before the industrial era. It is still relatively hard ro mine, but not as hard as platinum or irridium.

    The paper money is much easier to create, or those numbers in your
    bank account can be created at no effort at all, by a push of the
    button.

    Creating paper money is still too hard to do it in my own garage...

    So maybe you think gold has little intrinsic value. The intrinsic
    value of those numbers in your bankaccount is 0.

    Indeed. It has value only because there is consencus that it has value. If society collapses that value will collapse as well.

    My point is that gold is not immune to that process.

    MvdV>> Gold has little more intrinsic value than many other common
    MvdV>> metals. Humanity just has not discovered that fact. Wait until
    MvdV>> the great famine returns and someone tries to trade his
    MvdV>> inedible gold for food...

    If that happens I rather have gold than numbers in a bankaccount, of a bank that no longer excists...

    If society as we know it collapses and we are back to the dark ages, you and I will not be able to survive. With or without gold.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25255957 https://sciengsustainability.blogspot.com/2013/05/why-is-gold-so-valuable.html https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-194047,00.html https://www.quora.com/Why-is-gold-still-so-valuable


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Friday, August 09, 2019 14:54:36
    Hello Bjrn,

    THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!

    Maybe not the sky, but the dollar. And it was the Trump that made it
    happen.

    Thanks for giving Trump credit for something.
    Chicken Little was right.
    The pie in the sky really is falling.

    --Lee

    --
    Get Her Wet Here

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Bj÷rn Felten on Friday, August 09, 2019 14:54:47
    Hello Bjrn,

    Yes. The dollar will fall.
    But not before the euro.

    That can very well happen, but only because the FED has so much gold deposited by around 60 Central Banks throughout the world in their vaults, that I doubt they will hesitate to use themselves.

    How much gold is actually there? Has anybody bothered to count?
    What if countries that own the gold decide they want it back? And
    it is nowhere to be found?

    Many currencies are so intertwined they'll probably all fall together.

    Not to worry. We have Trump to save us. Just like we had FDR
    last time. See how that works?

    Long live the British pound!

    I doubt that it will survive much longer than any other major currency,

    We have Donald Trump to save us.
    The UK has Boris Johnson.
    Who does Sweden have?

    even though BoE also has a lot of deposited gold from other countries.

    And what happens when countries that have gold being held for them
    by the USA want to have that gold returned, and the USA cannot find
    it?

    They e.g. just recently denied Venezuela from getting their gold
    repatriated
    on demand -- seemingly after pressure by the Trump administration.

    The Trump administration does not recognize the current Venezuelan
    government as legitimate. So who does that gold belong to?

    --Lee

    --
    Erections, That's Our Game

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Friday, August 09, 2019 14:54:59
    Hello Ward,

    There is no question we have a sick society. But the USA is not
    alone. Norway had a fellow who went off the rails wiping out 60+
    kids as his means of protest. And none of them were black, brown,
    or Mexican.

    That was a single event over 8 years ago.

    There are shootings in every country in the world.
    Every year. Nothing new about that.

    The USA has had over 250 shootings alone this year.

    393 million guns in the USA.
    320 million people in the USA.
    How many shootings, per year?
    About 40,000.
    Most of them suicides.

    At least when Japanese do mass suicides they use knives and swords.

    --Lee

    --
    We Put Big Loads In Tight Places

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Lee Lofaso on Friday, August 09, 2019 15:16:04
    Hi Lee,

    On 2019-08-09 14:54:47, you wrote to Bjrn Felten:

    And what happens when countries that have gold being held for them
    by the USA want to have that gold returned, and the USA cannot find
    it?

    Then they will have to buy "replacement" gold on the market... Maybe that's a factor in the current price going up? ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Gregory Deyss on Friday, August 09, 2019 06:40:00
    Gregory Deyss wrote to mark lewis <=-

    With Obama he did also golf, but did not get much done and he was in office for 8 years.

    Obama didn't profit from his golf games.

    no they're not... WE are paying those tariffs... all trump did was make the cost of those products go up and since we have to pay the cost,
    guess who suffers... certainly not the chinese...

    Yahtzee!

    Sure they are and the Chinese are not happy about either, this is also
    why they are devaluing their currency again as they have done for
    yeas, to try to counter the tariffs.

    I guess we can buy less in response, and everyone wins - except both
    country's economies and people.


    ... Do you know where you are?
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.52
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to WARD DOSSCHE on Friday, August 09, 2019 10:29:28
    So no, I do not think your newspaper clipping stands up, I think
    it falls
    flat and makes what your trying to say looking like a fool.

    I just spent about a month in the greater Yakima area, Washington.
    It seemed
    to me Spanish is the main language there.

    Spanish IS the main language in most of the western USA.
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to BJƒRN FELTEN on Friday, August 09, 2019 10:31:32
    The economy doing great is a mantra.

    It's probably no coincident that the gold price has been going up
    steadily
    for more than a year, more than 5% in just 30 days. The new interest
    rate and
    Trump's escalated trade war with the world is showing:

    https://goldprice.org/

    I'm not at all surprised. I expect the US economy to completely
    collapse in the next couple of years
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to BJƒRN FELTEN on Friday, August 09, 2019 10:35:42
    THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!

    Maybe not the sky, but the dollar. And it was the Trump that made
    it happen.

    Actually it was the fact that the US government is fiscally
    irresponsible and has been literally bankrupt for over 30 years. Trump
    had nothing to do with it, he's only been in office for three years
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to MARK LEWIS on Friday, August 09, 2019 10:37:32
    Re: The Trump economy is doing great
    By: Bjrn Felten to mark lewis on Wed Aug 07 2019 19:32:51

    take a wheelbarrow to the market for a few moldy biscuits if
    they even
    have any that are still edible...

    Unless you have some gold stached away. You can probably buy
    the entire
    supermarket for just a few small bullions...

    that's now... above i'm speaking of what will be happening once they
    finishing
    destroying everything and drive the dollar into the shit...

    Bill Clinton did that thirty years ago
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to BOB ACKLEY on Friday, August 09, 2019 19:05:32
    Actually it was the fact that the US government is fiscally
    irresponsible and has been literally bankrupt for over 30 years.

    Actually it started November 1910 on Jekyll Island, Georgia.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Michiel van der Vlist on Friday, August 09, 2019 19:54:25
    Hi Michiel,

    On 2019-08-09 12:24:38, you wrote to me:

    The paper money is much easier to create, or those numbers in your
    bank account can be created at no effort at all, by a push of the
    button.

    MvdV> Creating paper money is still too hard to do it in my own garage...

    As is creating gold...

    So maybe you think gold has little intrinsic value. The intrinsic
    value of those numbers in your bankaccount is 0.

    MvdV> Indeed. It has value only because there is consencus that it has value. If
    MvdV> society collapses that value will collapse as well.

    MvdV> My point is that gold is not immune to that process.

    It depends largly on the kind of collapse. But untill such a thing happens, gold (and related products), is just another asset class you can invest in, with some unique properties, because it has little correlation to the value of other assets. It can protect against inflation and devaluation of your currency.

    If that happens I rather have gold than numbers in a bankaccount, of
    a bank that no longer excists...

    MvdV> If society as we know it collapses and we are back to the dark ages,

    Gold was valuable in the dark ages...

    MvdV> you and I will not be able to survive. With or without gold.

    How likely is a full collapse? If you think it isn't very likely, gold is a usefull investment.

    And it's hard to protect yourself against a full collapse. Valuable things when
    such a thing happens, are knowledge about how to survive under such circumstances, and weapons. These help to protect your other assets that will help you survive, or aquire them when you don't have them.
    But it's very hard (in Europe) to have these kind of weapons (== illegal). And knowledge takes a lot of time to study and practise. Time better spend on learning about how to invest in gold, if you don't think a full collapse is likely. ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Gregory Deyss on Friday, August 09, 2019 13:31:28
    On 2019 Aug 07 07:15:20, you wrote to me:

    success that Donald Trump has provided through his leadership,

    what success? the success he's had a taking $$$ from US citizens and
    lining his own pockets with? the $$$ he's spending on his golfing at
    his own courses that he bitched about obama doing?

    Yes he does play golf, but that's the thing about this President.
    You can have your cake and eat it too when you get things done.

    the problem is that he's using taxpayer $$$ to pay for those trips AND he's making profit off those same $$$... *THAT* is what is wrong...

    With Obama he did also golf, but did not get much done and he was in office for 8 years.

    obama also didn't profit monetarily from those trips... then there's also this...

    President Obama should have gone to Louisiana days ago, instead of golfing.
    Too little, too late!
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 23, 2016

    While our wonderful president was out playing golf all day, the TSA is falling apart, just like our government! Airports a total disaster!
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) May 21, 2016

    "@YankeeRunnerLV:Can U trick Obama into appearing on @ApprenticeNBC by telling him Golf is involved so you can do Country a favor& FIRE HIM!
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 6, 2015

    "@mooovin_on: No Bush, no Clinton, no RINOs, no golfing, no more handouts!!
    It's got to be @realDonaldTrump. Time for #Trump2016"
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 24, 2014

    Obama has admitted that he spends his mornings watching @ESPN. Then he plays golf, fundraises & grants amnesty to illegals.
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 16, 2014

    President Obama has a major meeting on the N.Y.C. Ebola outbreak, with people flying in from all over the country, but decided to play golf!
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 24, 2014

    "@nikkio: DonaldTrump: Only way to get Obama to do right for our Marine would be for every country club across USA to deny him golf access
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 21, 2014

    We pay for Obama's travel so he can fundraise millions so Democrats can run
    on lies. Then we pay for his golf.
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 14, 2014

    Can you believe that,with all of the problems and difficulties facing the U.S., President Obama spent the day playing golf.Worse than Carter
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 14, 2014

    Can you believe we still have not gotten our Marine out of Mexico. He sits in prison while our PRESIDENT plays golf and makes bad decisions!
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 26, 2014

    "@Kalozap: Obama's mind, IsIs, ebola, etc.... and then thinking, boy I wish
    I was on the golf coarse. What should I wear on the Links"
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 11, 2014

    If Obama resigns from office NOW, thereby doing a great service to the country--I will give him free lifetime golf at any one of my courses!
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 10, 2014

    "@TheBigJamesG: What kind of president doesn't get playing golf after a cruel beheading isn't the thing to do? Detached from reality he is"
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 9, 2014

    "@__________IAN: "No one respects golf more than me, but there is a time and place for everything"- Mr.Trump hitting the nail on the head!"
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 8, 2014

    "@BackOnTrackUSA: @realDonaldTrump While Obama vacations,golfs, attends parties & jazz concerts, ISIS is chopping heads off of journalists."
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 20, 2014

    "@jeff_smith7: @realDonaldTrump Maybe Perry can put in a 9 hole golf course
    on the banks of the Rio Grande to lure Obama to see the border?"
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) July 11, 2014

    President Obama played golf yesterday???
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 18, 2013

    "@gretawire: PresObama is not busy talking to Congress about Syria..he is playing golf ...go figure"
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 8, 2013

    "@pellscuse11: @realDonaldTrump Who plays more golf, yourself or the President? My money is on POTUS." You win!
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 21, 2013

    My @foxandfriends interview discussing Pres. Obama playing golf w/@TigerWoods, US Airways-American merger & oil http://t.co/C868hkJf
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) February 19, 2013

    Obama should play golf with Republicans & opponents rather than his small group of friends. That way maybe the terrible gridlock would end.
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 19, 2012

    Too busy playing golf? @BarackObama sends form letters with an electronic signature to the parents of fallen SEALs http://t.co/ELKcqTyr
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 30, 2012

    23rd Jul 2012 from Twitlonger: Who else could take 16 vacations, play over 100 rounds of golf and hold over 300 fundraisers while serving as POTUS besides
    @BarackObama--& not one jobs meeting.

    I don't mind that @BarackObama plays a lot of golf. I just wish he used it productively to make deals with Congress!
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) June 18, 2012

    I play golf to relax. My company is in great shape. @BarackObama plays golf
    to escape work while America goes down the drain.
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 30, 2011

    Yesterday @BarackObama actually spent a full day in Washington. He didn't campaign, fund raise or play golf. Shocking.
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 22, 2011

    @BarackObama played golf yesterday. Now he heads to a 10 day vacation in Martha's Vineyard. Nice work ethic.
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 15, 2011

    [chomp]

    President Trump stands defiant and is not going to allow this nation to be played like in years gone by.

    riiiiight... trump is the one playing this nation and people like you are falling for it ass over teacup...

    )\/(ark

    Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set
    them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them. ... What do you mean my Birth Certificate expired?
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Gregory Deyss on Friday, August 09, 2019 13:38:00
    On 2019 Aug 08 06:51:30, you wrote to Bjrn Felten:

    You obviously is one of the few Trump hugging fanatics remaining.
    Many of your former like-minded have already seen, that the Emperor
    has no clothes.

    We are far from few, the world will find out after election day what the numbers are, I can guarantee you, we are far from the few.

    you are right about that... there are ignorant idiots wearing MAGA hats everywhere...

    )\/(ark

    Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set
    them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them. ... Sharing multiplies the joy.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Gregory Deyss on Friday, August 09, 2019 13:40:58
    On 2019 Aug 08 07:16:58, you wrote to Ward Dossche:

    The inventor of the maga-hat did it himself in the aftermath of
    shootings #249 250 and 251 blaming it on the Democrats.

    There were many tragedies under Obama, no one blamed him, it was the right call then, just as it wrong to blame this Presidents for the recent
    events.
    A madman with a gun tried to murder several Republican politicians at a baseball game in a public park, no one called for gun control then.

    oh ye of little brain, you should read more and learn to comprehend better... numerous liberals, one being Va governor Terry McAuliffe, called for stricter gun control laws... some republicans blamed anti-trump rhetoric... others blamed national polarization as the cause...

    )\/(ark

    Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set
    them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them. ... It's hard to believe he beat out 1,000,000 other sperm.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Friday, August 09, 2019 21:47:37
    Hello Bjrn,

    MvdV>> Gold has little more intrinsic value than many other common metals.
    MvdV>> Humanity just has not discovered that fact.

    How incredibly stupid of us after all those many thousands of years.

    At least we've discovered the relationship between supply and demand...

    Since Trump began his stupid trade war with China, look at what
    has happened. In particular, which countries have been exporting
    gold to you-know-where.

    Since 17 November 2018 to 19 April 2019

    Exports of gold to China & US

    Australia to China
    1.5 billion (Nov) to 4.8 billion (Apr)

    Australia to US
    ..6 billion (Nov) to 0 billion (Apr)

    Exports of petrol to China & US

    Australia to China
    4 billion (Nov) to 7.8 billion (Apr)

    Australia to US
    2 billion (Nov) to 0 billion (US)

    Exports of cotton to China & US

    Australia to China
    50 million (Nov) to 525 million (Apr)

    Australia to US
    700 milllion (Nov) to 300 million (Apr)

    Exports of gold to China & US

    Switzerland to China
    2 billion (Nov) to 9 billion (Apr)

    Switzerland to US
    8 billion (Nov) to 0 billion (Apr)

    Exports of computer chips & circuit boards to China & US

    Canada to China
    1.3 billion (Nov) to 0.6 billion (Apr)

    Canada to US
    0.4 billion (Nov) to 0.8 billion (Apr)

    Aside from Australia, which seems to be the biggest winner
    in this US/China trade war, the other main winners are Taiwan
    and Hong Kong, both of which China claims as their own.

    --Lee

    --
    I Take A Sheet In The Pool

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Friday, August 09, 2019 23:59:33
    Hello mark,

    success that Donald Trump has provided through his leadership,

    what success? the success he's had a taking $$$ from US citizens and
    lining his own pockets with? the $$$ he's spending on his golfing at
    his own courses that he bitched about obama doing?

    Yes he does play golf, but that's the thing about this President.
    You can have your cake and eat it too when you get things done.

    the problem is that he's using taxpayer $$$ to pay for those trips AND
    he's
    making profit off those same $$$... *THAT* is what is wrong...

    https://trumpgolfcount.com/


    Donald Trump has made 202 visits to golf clubs since taking office.
    Through August 4, 2019. At taxpayer expense of about $107,000,000.

    Projected through the end of his current term would be 314 visits.
    If he somehow manages to win a second term, it would be 627 visits.
    I cannot even imagine the cost to US taxpayers if that happened.

    The total times Obama played golf furing his eight year Presidency
    was 306 times. At a much lower cost than what has already been spent
    on Trump for his outings.

    With Obama he did also golf, but did not get much done and he was in
    office for 8 years.

    obama also didn't profit monetarily from those trips... then there's also this...

    I will concede Obama is not a very good golfer. Not quite as bad as
    Gerald Ford, who managed to hit an innocent bystander on the fairway,
    but still bad.

    President Obama should have gone to Louisiana days ago, instead of
    golfing.
    Too little, too late!
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 23, 2016

    Good God, man! Have you ever tried to play golf at Grand Isle?
    That beach is a mixture of oil, mud, and sand! And that was before
    the BP disaster! And with all those tar balls blocking the holes,
    totally impossible to play!

    --Lee

    --
    Pork. The One You Love.

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Wilfred van Velzen on Friday, August 09, 2019 23:59:44
    Hello Wilfred,

    And what happens when countries that have gold being held for them
    by the USA want to have that gold returned, and the USA cannot find
    it?

    Then they will have to buy "replacement" gold on the market... Maybe
    that's
    a factor in the current price going up? ;)

    China is hoarding gold, mostly from Australia and Switzerland
    since Trump began his stupid trade war. What will China do next?
    Start watching what China does with oil and gas ...

    --Lee

    --
    Sleep With Someone New

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Dale Shipp@1:261/1466 to Mark Lewis on Saturday, August 10, 2019 01:00:04
    On 08-09-19 13:31, Mark Lewis <=-
    spoke to Gregory Deyss about 'It Can't Happen Here' <=-

    You have managed to amass quite a list of quotes here. The one that I
    do not see is when he said at a campaign rally before he was elected was
    that [paraphrased] Obama plays golf too much, when I am president I
    won't be playing golf at all --- I'll be working.

    Dale Shipp
    fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
    (1:261/1466)


    ... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 01:03:02, 10 Aug 2019
    ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

    --- Maximus/NT 3.01
    * Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Wilfred van Velzen on Saturday, August 10, 2019 13:36:15
    Hello Wilfred,

    On Friday August 09 2019 19:54, you wrote to me:

    The paper money is much easier to create, or those numbers in
    your bank account can be created at no effort at all, by a push
    of the button.

    MvdV>> Creating paper money is still too hard to do it in my own
    MvdV>> garage...

    As is creating gold...

    Als, I have not yet found the magic word to transfrom led into gold...

    MvdV>> Indeed. It has value only because there is consencus that it
    MvdV>> has value. If society collapses that value will collapse as
    MvdV>> well.

    MvdV>> My point is that gold is not immune to that process.

    It depends largly on the kind of collapse. But untill such a thing happens, gold (and related products), is just another asset class you
    can invest in, with some unique properties, because it has little correlation to the value of other assets.

    Which can work the othe way as well. It canb devaluate just like that.

    It can protect against inflation and devaluation of your currency.

    Then who o what protects against devaluation of the gold?

    If that happens I rather have gold than numbers in a
    bankaccount, of a bank that no longer excists...

    MvdV>> If society as we know it collapses and we are back to the dark
    MvdV>> ages,

    Gold was valuable in the dark ages...

    In the dark ages only those who had the means to protect it with right of might
    had gold.
    If the dark ages return and I had gold, I would not have it very long...

    MvdV>> you and I will not be able to survive. With or without gold.

    How likely is a full collapse? If you think it isn't very likely, gold
    is a usefull investment.

    Very few people that invest in gold actually have the metal in their posession.
    Most of it is numbers in a "gold account" in a bank. Susceptible to the same vulnerabilities as any other bank account.

    And it's hard to protect yourself against a full collapse. Valuable
    things when such a thing happens, are knowledge about how to survive
    under such circumstances, and weapons.

    I would not have a chance. I might have had 40 years ago. But at my age? Forget
    it.

    These help to protect your other assets that will help you survive, or aquire them when you don't have them. But it's very hard (in Europe)
    to have these kind of weapons (== illegal).

    If weapons were as easy to get as in the US, I still would not have a chance. There is always someone faster...

    And knowledge takes a lot of time to study and practise. Time better
    spend on learning about how to invest in gold, if you don't think a
    full collapse is likely. ;)

    I am not optimistic. Humanity is unable to control its numbers. I think that planet earth can not support another doubling of the number of people as we have seen in the last 40 years. The quay will turn the ship somewhere this century. I expect not to live to see it, but who knows...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to All on Saturday, August 10, 2019 18:05:19
    There is only one answer to this type of nonsense -

    MvdV> I am not optimistic. Humanity is unable to control its numbers. I think that
    MvdV> planet earth can not support another doubling of the number of people as
    we
    MvdV> have seen in the last 40 years. The quay will turn the ship somewhere this
    MvdV> century. I expect not to live to see it, but who knows...

    https://www.creators.com/read/walter-williams/05/17/overpopulation-hoax


    There you go. Like climate change, overpopulation is all a hoax.
    Remember, you heard it first here.

    --Lee

    --
    Often Licked, Never Beaten

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Dale Shipp on Saturday, August 10, 2019 18:05:32
    Hello Dale,

    You have managed to amass quite a list of quotes here. The one that I
    do not see is when he said at a campaign rally before he was elected was that [paraphrased] Obama plays golf too much, when I am president I
    won't be playing golf at all --- I'll be working.

    Working. On. The. Golf. Course.

    202 days, through August 4, 2019, at taxpayer expense of $107,000,000. Projected to the end of his four-year term, that would be 314 days.

    Compare that with Barack Obama, who spent 306 days playing golf
    during his eight year presidency.

    Horror the thought if Donald Trump wins a second term, making his
    projected visits to golf clubs at 627.

    --Lee

    --
    Change Is Cumming

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Saturday, August 10, 2019 18:05:44
    Hello Michiel,

    As is creating gold...

    MvdV> Als, I have not yet found the magic word to transfrom led into gold...

    NASA has discovered an asteroid made of gold. All we have to do
    is go there and grab some for ourselves.

    It depends largly on the kind of collapse. But untill such a thing
    happens, gold (and related products), is just another asset class you
    can invest in, with some unique properties, because it has little
    correlation to the value of other assets.

    MvdV> Which can work the othe way as well. It canb devaluate just like that.

    Ancient peoples had lots of gold. Then the Spanish Conquistidors
    took it all away ...

    It can protect against inflation and devaluation of your currency.

    MvdV> Then who o what protects against devaluation of the gold?

    The priests never had a chance protecting that gold from invaders.

    If that happens I rather have gold than numbers in a
    bankaccount, of a bank that no longer excists...

    MvdV>>> If society as we know it collapses and we are back to the dark
    MvdV>>> ages,

    Gold was valuable in the dark ages...

    MvdV> In the dark ages only those who had the means to protect it with right of
    MvdV> might had gold.
    MvdV> If the dark ages return and I had gold, I would not have it very long...

    It would have been given to priests to use for religious purposes.

    Before and during WWII, Benito Mussolini asked the Italian people
    to give him all their gold. For the war effort. Of course, not all
    Italians (especially Sicilians) were that stupid, realizing none of
    them would be getting paid anything for their gold. Mussolini also
    wanted Italians to make babies for his cause ...

    MvdV>>> you and I will not be able to survive. With or without gold.

    How likely is a full collapse? If you think it isn't very likely, gold
    is a usefull investment.

    MvdV> Very few people that invest in gold actually have the metal in their
    MvdV> posession. Most of it is numbers in a "gold account" in a bank. Susceptible
    MvdV> to the same vulnerabilities as any other bank account.

    People own lots of gold. Usually in the form of jewelry rather than
    bullion. Sometimes that gold winds up missing. Usually as a result
    of somebody finding it and deciding to keep it for themselves.

    And it's hard to protect yourself against a full collapse. Valuable
    things when such a thing happens, are knowledge about how to survive
    under such circumstances, and weapons.

    MvdV> I would not have a chance. I might have had 40 years ago. But at my age?
    MvdV> Forget it.

    Clint Eastwood is 88 years old. You mess with Clint, he will make
    your day. Chuck Norris is only a wee bit younger. And he is still
    teaching youngsters how to protect themselves.

    These help to protect your other assets that will help you survive, or
    aquire them when you don't have them. But it's very hard (in Europe)
    to have these kind of weapons (== illegal).

    MvdV> If weapons were as easy to get as in the US, I still would not have a
    MvdV> chance. There is always someone faster...

    Chuck Norris is still pretty quick, even at his age. And that is
    without using guns of any kind. However, Dirty Harry still has his
    piece, and knows how to use it.

    And knowledge takes a lot of time to study and practise. Time better
    spend on learning about how to invest in gold, if you don't think a
    full collapse is likely. ;)

    MvdV> I am not optimistic. Humanity is unable to control its numbers. I think that
    MvdV> planet earth can not support another doubling of the number of people as
    we
    MvdV> have seen in the last 40 years. The quay will turn the ship somewhere this
    MvdV> century. I expect not to live to see it, but who knows...

    Malthus' theory of overpopulation has been soundly refuted decades ago.
    What enabled the population to explode was the discovery of penicillin
    and the use of antibiotics, along with the production of oil and gas.
    While this planet can easily accomodate over 100 billion people, we
    do not do a very good job of allocating resources. What happens when
    the production of oil and gas declines to a level that is unable to
    support a growing population is a very quick and steep decline in that population.

    --Lee

    --
    Erections, That's Our Game

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Michiel van der Vlist on Saturday, August 10, 2019 18:53:21
    Hi Michiel,

    On 2019-08-10 13:36:15, you wrote to me:

    It depends largly on the kind of collapse. But untill such a thing
    happens, gold (and related products), is just another asset class you
    can invest in, with some unique properties, because it has little
    correlation to the value of other assets.

    MvdV> Which can work the othe way as well. It canb devaluate just like that.

    That can happpen to all kinds of investments. Your point?

    MvdV>>> If society as we know it collapses and we are back to the dark
    MvdV>>> ages,

    Gold was valuable in the dark ages...

    MvdV> In the dark ages only those who had the means to protect it with right of
    MvdV> might had gold. If the dark ages return and I had gold, I would not have
    it
    MvdV> very long...

    That was true for everything that was used to store value.

    How likely is a full collapse? If you think it isn't very likely,
    gold is a usefull investment.

    MvdV> Very few people that invest in gold actually have the metal in their
    MvdV> posession. Most of it is numbers in a "gold account" in a bank. Susceptible
    MvdV> to the same vulnerabilities as any other bank account.

    I don't know how that is with regular banks where you can have a gold account, but that's not true for firms that specialise in precious metal accounts. They store and insure the gold that you are the owner of, and you pay them a fee to do so. When they go bankrupt it's still your gold and not part of the assets of
    that bank that needs to be devided between the creditors of that bank.

    When you put money in a bank or savings account, you are no longer the owner of
    the money. When that bank goes bankrupt you only have a claim on a certain amount of money, but you are at the back of the queue of all others who have a claim on that banks remaining assets. There is the "Depositogarantiestelsel" where all the banks together guarantee the money of clients of banks that go bankrupt, up to a fixed limit. But when more than 1 bank or a really large bank
    goes bankrupt. That guarantee isn't worth much.

    These help to protect your other assets that will help you survive,
    or aquire them when you don't have them. But it's very hard (in
    Europe) to have these kind of weapons (== illegal).

    MvdV> If weapons were as easy to get as in the US, I still would not have a
    MvdV> chance. There is always someone faster...

    It isn't all about being faster than the other. It's about skill to use the weapons, and being able seem like a threat to the other, so they go find an easier target. That isn't all about age...


    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Gregory Deyss@1:267/150 to mark lewis on Sunday, August 11, 2019 11:18:51
    On 09 Aug 2019, mark lewis said the following...

    On 2019 Aug 07 07:15:20, you wrote to me:

    success that Donald Trump has provided through his leadership,

    what success? the success he's had a taking $$$ from US citizens and
    lining his own pockets with? the $$$ he's spending on his golfing at
    his own courses that he bitched about obama doing?

    Yes he does play golf, but that's the thing about this President.
    You can have your cake and eat it too when you get things done.

    the problem is that he's using taxpayer $$$ to pay for those trips AND he's making profit off those same $$$... *THAT* is what is wrong...

    How is he making money when he just so happens to own the courses that he is playing on?

    This is the first President in a very long time not collecting any money for being President, he does not need the money, and what does that say about his success.

    With Obama he did also golf, but did not get much done and he was in office for 8 years.

    obama also didn't profit monetarily from those trips... then there's also this...

    The taxpayers still paid for his vacations in Hawaii.

    All great points here, Thanks Mark.

    President Obama should have gone to Louisiana days ago, instead of golfing. Too little, too late!
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 23, 2016

    While our wonderful president was out playing golf all day, the TSA
    is falling apart, just like our government! Airports a total disaster!
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) May 21, 2016

    "@YankeeRunnerLV:Can U trick Obama into appearing on @ApprenticeNBC
    by telling him Golf is involved so you can do Country a favor& FIRE HIM!
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 6, 2015

    "@mooovin_on: No Bush, no Clinton, no RINOs, no golfing, no more handouts!! It's got to be @realDonaldTrump. Time for #Trump2016"
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 24, 2014

    Obama has admitted that he spends his mornings watching @ESPN. Then
    he plays golf, fundraises & grants amnesty to illegals.
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 16, 2014

    President Obama has a major meeting on the N.Y.C. Ebola outbreak,
    with people flying in from all over the country, but decided to play
    golf! -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 24, 2014

    "@nikkio: DonaldTrump: Only way to get Obama to do right for our Marine would be for every country club across USA to deny him golf access
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 21, 2014

    We pay for Obama's travel so he can fundraise millions so Democrats can run on lies. Then we pay for his golf.
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 14, 2014

    Can you believe that,with all of the problems and difficulties
    facing the U.S., President Obama spent the day playing golf.Worse than Carter -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 14, 2014

    Can you believe we still have not gotten our Marine out of Mexico.
    He sits in prison while our PRESIDENT plays golf and makes bad decisions!
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 26, 2014

    "@Kalozap: Obama's mind, IsIs, ebola, etc.... and then thinking, boy
    I wish I was on the golf coarse. What should I wear on the Links"
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 11, 2014

    If Obama resigns from office NOW, thereby doing a great service to
    the country--I will give him free lifetime golf at any one of my courses!
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 10, 2014

    "@TheBigJamesG: What kind of president doesn't get playing golf
    after a cruel beheading isn't the thing to do? Detached from reality he is" -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 9, 2014

    "@__________IAN: "No one respects golf more than me, but there is a time and place for everything"- Mr.Trump hitting the nail on the head!"
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 8, 2014

    "@BackOnTrackUSA: @realDonaldTrump While Obama vacations,golfs, attends parties & jazz concerts, ISIS is chopping heads off of journalists." -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 20, 2014

    "@jeff_smith7: @realDonaldTrump Maybe Perry can put in a 9 hole golf course on the banks of the Rio Grande to lure Obama to see the border?"
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) July 11, 2014

    President Obama played golf yesterday???
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 18, 2013

    "@gretawire: PresObama is not busy talking to Congress about
    Syria..he is playing golf ...go figure"
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 8, 2013

    "@pellscuse11: @realDonaldTrump Who plays more golf, yourself or the President? My money is on POTUS." You win!
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 21, 2013

    My @foxandfriends interview discussing Pres. Obama playing golf w/@TigerWoods, US Airways-American merger & oil http://t.co/C868hkJf
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) February 19, 2013

    Obama should play golf with Republicans & opponents rather than his small group of friends. That way maybe the terrible gridlock would end.
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 19, 2012

    Too busy playing golf? @BarackObama sends form letters with an electronic signature to the parents of fallen SEALs http://t.co/ELKcqTyr
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 30, 2012

    23rd Jul 2012 from Twitlonger: Who else could take 16 vacations,
    play over 100 rounds of golf and hold over 300 fundraisers while serving as POTUS besides @BarackObama--& not one jobs meeting.

    I don't mind that @BarackObama plays a lot of golf. I just wish he used it productively to make deals with Congress!
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) June 18, 2012

    I play golf to relax. My company is in great shape. @BarackObama
    plays golf to escape work while America goes down the drain.
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 30, 2011

    Yesterday @BarackObama actually spent a full day in Washington. He didn't campaign, fund raise or play golf. Shocking.
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 22, 2011

    @BarackObama played golf yesterday. Now he heads to a 10 day
    vacation in Martha's Vineyard. Nice work ethic.
    -- Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 15, 2011

    [chomp]

    All great points proving that Obama was a lousy President, as shown by
    previous tweets by Donald Trump.

    President Trump stands defiant and is not going to allow this nation played like in years gone by.


    Fact: The Country is far better off now under this President who also plays golf then they were under the previous one who also played golf.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/64)
    * Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Dale Shipp on Sunday, August 11, 2019 13:06:34
    On 2019 Aug 10 01:00:04, you wrote to me:

    You have managed to amass quite a list of quotes here.

    someone else did the work... i only copied part of the list to the post to show
    trump's hipocrisy... i was remiss in providing attribution and disclaimer :?

    The one that I do not see is when he said at a campaign rally before
    he was elected was that [paraphrased] Obama plays golf too much, when
    I am president I won't be playing golf at all --- I'll be working.

    yes, i remember that one and others of similar vein... i've not found a good source from which to easily copy them when needed...

    )\/(ark

    Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set
    them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them. ... Ura Montanan if your first date was to go gopher hunting.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Gregory Deyss on Sunday, August 11, 2019 13:02:42
    On 2019 Aug 11 11:18:50, you wrote to me:

    Yes he does play golf, but that's the thing about this President.
    You can have your cake and eat it too when you get things done.

    the problem is that he's using taxpayer $$$ to pay for those trips
    AND he's making profit off those same $$$... *THAT* is what is
    wrong...

    How is he making money when he just so happens to own the courses that
    he is playing on?

    you just answered your own question...

    [chomp]

    All great points proving that Obama was a lousy President, as shown by previous tweets by Donald Trump.

    no, they don't prove a thing other than what some imbecile thinks/thought about
    obama... they are, however, excellent points proving what a hipocrite trump is...

    )\/(ark

    Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set
    them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them. ... Have we all become dead zombies?
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Wilfred van Velzen on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 12:28:35
    Hello Wilfred,

    On Saturday August 10 2019 18:53, you wrote to me:

    Gold was valuable in the dark ages...

    MvdV>> In the dark ages only those who had the means to protect it
    MvdV>> with right of might had gold. If the dark ages return and I had
    MvdV>> gold, I would not have it very long...

    That was true for everything that was used to store value.

    Indeed. So when we are back in de dark ages, I will not be able to hold on to my gold, diamonds, cowry shells, darseks or bars of latinum. Or whatever is considered of value by then.

    Other than that, average life time in the dark ages was <40 years. I am way past that. I simply have no chance.

    How likely is a full collapse? If you think it isn't very
    likely, gold is a usefull investment.

    MvdV>> Very few people that invest in gold actually have the metal in
    MvdV>> their posession. Most of it is numbers in a "gold account" in a
    MvdV>> bank. Susceptible to the same vulnerabilities as any other bank
    MvdV>> account.

    I don't know how that is with regular banks where you can have a gold account, but that's not true for firms that specialise in precious
    metal accounts. They store and insure the gold that you are the owner
    of, and you pay them a fee to do so. When they go bankrupt it's still
    your gold and not part of the assets of that bank that needs to be
    devided between the creditors of that bank.

    That may be what they say in the brochure, but a commmon saying among lawyers is: "posession is 90% of ownership". So when when things go wrong and push come
    to shove, it still remains to be seen how it will work out. AFAIK, there is no
    precedent yet...

    MvdV>> If weapons were as easy to get as in the US, I still would not
    MvdV>> have a chance. There is always someone faster...

    It isn't all about being faster than the other. It's about skill to
    use the weapons, and being able seem like a threat to the other, so
    they go find an easier target. That isn't all about age...

    Not having any gold, diamonds, cowry shells or bars of latinum, will make me a less atractive target. In my case, I believe that to be a better survival strategy...


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 13:27:06
    Hi Michiel,

    On 2019-08-13 12:28:35, you wrote to me:

    I don't know how that is with regular banks where you can have a gold
    account, but that's not true for firms that specialise in precious
    metal accounts. They store and insure the gold that you are the owner
    of, and you pay them a fee to do so. When they go bankrupt it's still
    your gold and not part of the assets of that bank that needs to be
    devided between the creditors of that bank.

    MvdV> That may be what they say in the brochure, but a commmon saying among
    MvdV> lawyers is: "posession is 90% of ownership". So when when things go wrong
    MvdV> and push come to shove, it still remains to be seen how it will work out.
    MvdV> AFAIK, there is no precedent yet...

    That's true. But with money in the bank you are sure to lose it...

    It isn't all about being faster than the other. It's about skill to
    use the weapons, and being able seem like a threat to the other, so
    they go find an easier target. That isn't all about age...

    MvdV> Not having any gold, diamonds, cowry shells or bars of latinum, will make
    MvdV> me a less atractive target. In my case, I believe that to be a better
    MvdV> survival strategy...

    To be able to survive at all, you will at least need a more or less stable food
    supply. Which is valuable in those circumstances. And you will be the easier target. If you are lucky they will only tax you for a percentage, in return for
    your live and maybe protection... ;)

    Bye, Wilfred.


    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Michiel van der Vlist on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 14:06:59
    MvdV> Not having any gold, diamonds, cowry shells or bars of latinum, will
    MvdV> make me a less atractive target.

    Why, if it's worthless according to you?



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Björn Felten on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 14:10:02
    Hello Bjrn,

    On Tuesday August 13 2019 14:06, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Not having any gold, diamonds, cowry shells or bars of latinum,
    MvdV>> will make me a less atractive target.

    Why, if it's worthless according to you?

    Because there are others who do not care if I consider it worthless and want it
    anyway.


    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Tuesday, August 13, 2019 16:12:43
    Hello mark,

    Yes he does play golf, but that's the thing about this President.
    You can have your cake and eat it too when you get things done.

    the problem is that he's using taxpayer $$$ to pay for those trips
    AND he's making profit off those same $$$... *THAT* is what is
    wrong...

    How is he making money when he just so happens to own the courses that
    he is playing on?

    you just answered your own question...

    Jimmy Carter had to sell his peanut farm (he owned the business).
    Donald Trump chose to hold on to all (or a good many) of his own properties/business enterprises. That puts him in violation of
    the US Constitution, which he swore an oath to uphold and defend.

    --Lee

    --
    Laying Pipe Since '88

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Michiel van der Vlist@2:280/5555 to Wilfred van Velzen on Wednesday, August 14, 2019 00:39:20
    Hello Wilfred,

    On Tuesday August 13 2019 13:27, you wrote to me:

    MvdV>> Not having any gold, diamonds, cowry shells or bars of latinum,
    MvdV>> will make me a less atractive target. In my case, I believe
    MvdV>> that to be a better survival strategy...

    To be able to survive at all, you will at least need a more or less
    stable food supply. Which is valuable in those circumstances. And you
    will be the easier target. If you are lucky they will only tax you for
    a percentage, in return for your live and maybe protection... ;)

    My best chance will probably be to offer my services to the local warlord....

    Cheers, Michiel

    --- GoldED+/W32-MSVC 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: http://www.vlist.org (2:280/5555)