Hello Everybody,

A novice sysop asked an experienced sysop why Fidonet has no leader -

-=begin rant=-

After being away from Fidonet a long time, why don't we have a IC?

1. an IC died.
2. the ZCC selected a new IC.
3. new IC tried playing numbers games.
4. the ZCC rejected new IC's numbers games.
5. the ZCC removed the new IC from the position.
6. the ZCC has not selected a new IC.
7. the ZCC has been able to handle the main job (nodelist generation)
of the IC.

)\/(ark

-=end rant=-

What the experienced sysop is trying to explain to the newbie
is that once upon a time there was an attempted coup. And all
the sysops in Fidonet decided to pretend the newly self-declared
emperor was wearing clothes. Even though nobody could see what
clothes he was wearing.

Of course, all power resides with individual sysops. No other
power can exist outside of each sysop's domain/fiefdom, as each
individual sysop is lord and master of his/her own system.

Therefore, any claim to being Supreme Dictator of Fidonet is
an empty claim. Recognized by no one.

Which means that every single one of us, including sysops, is
a troll. And to think, by their own admission, they recognize
me as being the best of them all.

--Lee (Lord Troll of Fidonet)

--
Often Licked, Never Beaten

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Lee Lofaso wrote to All <=-

A novice sysop asked an experienced sysop why Fidonet has no
leader -

-=begin rant=-

Why is this trolltard being allowed to quote material that was
originally posted in a Sysop-Only echo area?

Who's letting him have access to that?

Bjorn, is that you? Please fix.



... So easy, a child could do it. Child sold separately.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.09-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

On 17/09/2019 09:56, Dan Clough -> Lee Lofaso wrote:

Why is this trolltard being allowed to quote material that was
originally posted in a Sysop-Only echo area?

Who's letting him have access to that?

Bjorn, is that you? Please fix.

Umm - who is the moderator of "that echo"?

Have you read that moderator's rules for the echo?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Bucca, Queensland, Australia (3:640/305)

Hello Dan,

A novice sysop asked an experienced sysop why Fidonet has no
leader -

-=begin rant=-

Why is this trolltard being allowed to quote material that was
originally posted in a Sysop-Only echo area?

Free speech, my man!
Unlimited free speech!
It's the American way!
Don't you love it?
I know I do!

Who's letting him have access to that?

You'll never know. :)

Bjorn, is that you? Please fix.

Bj”rn's system is working just fine.
Do you have a problem with that?

--Lee

--
Stop Workin', Start Jerkin'

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 2019 Sep 16 19:24:28, you wrote to All:

)\/(ark

-=end rant=-

there was no rant in that post at all...

What the experienced sysop is trying to explain to the newbie
is that once upon a time there was an attempted coup.

wrong... nothing was said about any supposed coup, successful, attempted, or failed...

)\/(ark

Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set
them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them. ... Thy Corona come, thy Chili be Con, on Cuervo it is El Jefe.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

-=begin rant=-

Why is this trolltard being allowed to quote material that was
originally posted in a Sysop-Only echo area?

Who's letting him have access to that?

Bjorn, is that you? Please fix.

Yes, Bjorn gives everyone read access to the sysop areas on his news server. In
some cases the sysop echo's are leaked by accident and in a few cases it's purposeful.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Alan Ianson wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Why is this trolltard being allowed to quote material that was
originally posted in a Sysop-Only echo area?

Who's letting him have access to that?

Bjorn, is that you? Please fix.

Yes, Bjorn gives everyone read access to the sysop areas on his
news server. In some cases the sysop echo's are leaked by
accident and in a few cases it's purposeful.

Yep, figures. Bjorn the troll-supporter. :-(



... Pros are those who do their jobs well, even when they don't feel like it. === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.09-Linux
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Hello Dan!

17 Sep 19 20:57, you wrote to Alan Ianson:

Yes, Bjorn gives everyone read access to the sysop areas on his
news server. In some cases the sysop echo's are leaked by
accident and in a few cases it's purposeful.

Yep, figures. Bjorn the troll-supporter. :-(

Trolls are the native inhabitants of Sweden and Norway. All others got
there by migration.

Why should he deny access to the real natives of his country.

Kees

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5--b20180707
* Origin: As for me, all I know is that, I know nothing. (2:280/5003.4)

Kees van Eeten wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Trolls are the native inhabitants of Sweden and Norway. All others got
there by migration.

On dashboards?


... Repetition is a form of change
--- MultiMail/XT v0.52
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

Hello mark,

LL> )\/(ark

LL> -=end rant=-

there was no rant in that post at all...

Whether it was a meaningful rant or an unmeaningful rant
may be open to question. But it was a rant.

What the experienced sysop is trying to explain to the newbie
is that once upon a time there was an attempted coup.

wrong... nothing was said about any supposed coup, successful, attempted, or
failed...

Since a sysop is lord and master of his own system, unless
he has multiple personality disorder, it would be very difficult
if not impossible to have a successful coup against his own
self.

--Lee

--
We Make Your Wet Dreams Come True

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

Yes, Bjorn gives everyone read access to the sysop areas on his
news server. In some cases the sysop echo's are leaked by
accident and in a few cases it's purposeful.

Yep, figures. Bjorn the troll-supporter. :-(

Trolls are the native inhabitants of Sweden and Norway. All others got
there by migration.

Trolls have no boundaries.

Why should he deny access to the real natives of his country.

Dan is talking about posts in another area (FN_SYSOP I think) being quoted here.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

On 19/09/2019 04:52, Alan Ianson -> Kees van Eeten wrote:

Trolls have no boundaries.

Why should he deny access to the real natives of his country.

Dan is talking about posts in another area (FN_SYSOP I think) being
quoted here.

Can you quote the rule of either echo where it says that this must not happen?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Bucca, Queensland, Australia (3:640/305)

Dan is talking about posts in another area (FN_SYSOP I think) being
quoted here.

Can you quote the rule of either echo where it says that this must not happen?

Yes.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

On 2019 Sep 18 20:04:38, you wrote to me:

there was no rant in that post at all...

Whether it was a meaningful rant or an unmeaningful rant
may be open to question. But it was a rant.

since *I* wrote it and i know my state of mind when i did, i know that it was not a rant... do not project your own emotions or feelings on me or my writings, sir...

)\/(ark

Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set
them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them. ... Tobacco free...the only way to be!! ;*)
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

Hello Alan,

Dan is talking about posts in another area (FN_SYSOP I think) being
quoted here.

Can you quote the rule of either echo where it says that this must not
happen?

Yes.

The self-elected sysop of that echo has been AWOL since forever,
without ever having posted any rules at all.

So please. Quote the rule(s) he posted that you claim
a non-participant of that echo is in violation of.

--Lee

--
I Take A Sheet In The Pool

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello David,

Trolls have no boundaries.

Why should he deny access to the real natives of his country.

Dan is talking about posts in another area (FN_SYSOP I think) being
quoted here.

Can you quote the rule of either echo where it says that this must not happen?

Rules? What rules? Whose rules? My rules? Your rules?
Somebody else's rules? Our own rules? Oh. That must be them.
Never mind.

--Lee

--
We're Great In Bed

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 19/09/2019 13:00, Alan Ianson -> David Drummond wrote:

Dan is talking about posts in another area (FN_SYSOP I think) being
quoted here.

Can you quote the rule of either echo where it says that this must not
happen?

Yes.

Then please do - until then I have no issues with non-sysops cross posting.

The settings are the same at my node as those at the node in Sweden.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

Dan is talking about posts in another area (FN_SYSOP I think) being
quoted here.

Can you quote the rule of either echo where it says that this must not
happen?

Yes.

Then please do

We have discussed the rules in some detail not so long ago. I see no reason to reopen that discussion.

- until then I have no issues with non-sysops cross posting.

The settings are the same at my node as those at the node in Sweden.

Nothing has changed. I know this.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

On 20/09/2019 15:48, Alan Ianson -> David Drummond wrote:

Can you quote the rule of either echo where it says that this must not
happen?

Yes.

Then please do

We have discussed the rules in some detail not so long ago. I see no reason to reopen that discussion.

Of course not - you have no evidence to back your claim.

- until then I have no issues with non-sysops cross posting.

The settings are the same at my node as those at the node in Sweden.

Nothing has changed. I know this.

In accordance with the rules presented to me.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

Hello David.

20 Sep 19 16:33, you wrote to Alan Ianson:

Nothing has changed. I know this.

In accordance with the rules presented to me.

I do not understand that so many people are nowadays missing self-reflection. If majority of people wrote to me that I posted nonsense, I would consider that.

Beside that, I have to pay traffic based on kB which most of this was Lofaso's trolling.

This is excatly why we need specific rules for everything, otherwise people will keep trying outsmart one another all the time...


Karel

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.4.7
* Origin: Plast DATA (2:423/39)

On 20/09/2019 15:58, Karel Kral -> David Drummond wrote:

Nothing has changed. I know this.

In accordance with the rules presented to me.

I do not understand that so many people are nowadays missing self-reflection. If majority of people wrote to me that I posted
nonsense, I would consider that.

Beside that, I have to pay traffic based on kB which most of this was Lofaso's trolling.

If you cannot afford to pursue this hobby, then should you be pursuing it?

This is exactly why we need specific rules for everything, otherwise people will keep trying outsmart one another all the time...

Then why do we not have those rules? Could it be that not everyone agrees with your view?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

I do not understand that so many people are nowadays missing self-reflection. If majority of people wrote to me that I posted nonsense, I would consider that.

Fidonet is not much different than real life. Some are here, some are there.

Beside that, I have to pay traffic based on kB which most of this was Lofaso's
trolling.

I find myself skipping over Lee's posting rather quickly if I look at them at all. His postings don't cost me any more above what I pay already.

This is excatly why we need specific rules for everything, otherwise people will keep trying outsmart one another all the time...

I have never found the rules of any area to be a problem and if I did I would simply go to another area.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hello David.

21 Sep 19 08:44, you wrote to me:

If you cannot afford to pursue this hobby, then should
you be pursuing it?

I can.

Then why do we not have those rules? Could it be that not
everyone agrees with your view?

My point was opposite. Live and let live. Unfortunately, we are people and in general, to prevent misuse, we are creating rules.

I expressed my opinion.

Karel

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.4.7
* Origin: Plast DATA (2:423/39)

On 21/09/2019 06:20, Karel Kral -> David Drummond wrote:

If you cannot afford to pursue this hobby, then should
you be pursuing it?

I can.

Then don't gripe about a few Kb

Then why do we not have those rules? Could it be that not
everyone agrees with your view?

My point was opposite. Live and let live. Unfortunately, we are people
and in general, to prevent misuse, we are creating rules.

I expressed my opinion.

And I've expressed mine.

LL likes to express his too. Is it any less valid than yours or mine?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

On 21/09/2019 10:13, Alan Ianson -> Karel Kral wrote:

I find myself skipping over Lee's posting rather quickly if I look at
them at all. His postings don't cost me any more above what I pay already.

This is excatly why we need specific rules for everything, otherwise people
will keep trying outsmart one another all the time...

I have never found the rules of any area to be a problem and if I did I would simply go to another area.

Your system, your choice.

It's a pity others feel a need for everyone to conform to their choice.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)

Hello, David Drummond.
On 21/09/19 16:35 you wrote:

I expressed my opinion.

And I've expressed mine. LL likes to express his too. Is it any
less valid than yours or mine?

Everyone have the right to express they own opinion, the issue is the right place, the right time and the right politeness.

Let me make an example:

You are at the theater watching a nice movie,suddenly someone stands up and starts speaking about nuclear physics, and the guardian of the theater says "It's his opinion and he's free to say anything".

After the physics symposium you're trying to Listen to the movie with some difficulties to link to the story and again the same person stands up and starts speaking agains the man near you that's your friend and if you try to argue about it he starts to offended you and your friend, the guardian says always the same story.

The third time the same person stands up you leave the teather. :)

As I wrote in other echoes, freedom without rules is anarchy and anarchy is always bad.

My 2 cents.
--
Ciao! :)
Fabio.
--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
* Origin: ]\/[imac boss android point (2:335/364.3)

I have never found the rules of any area to be a problem and if I did I
would simply go to another area.

It's a pity others feel a need for everyone to conform to their choice.

I respect the rules the moderators have put in place.

As far as access to sysop areas, I have respect for my fellow operators.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

As I wrote in other echoes, freedom without rules is anarchy and anarchy is always bad.

There is an element of anarchy in fidonet that's not hard to see. There is no law enforcement and if there was, there is no place to put the "bad" guys.

In spite of that Fidonet can still be a good place if Fidonet operators care about it and take the steps needed to make it so.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Hello Fabio,

I expressed my opinion.

And I've expressed mine. LL likes to express his too. Is it any
less valid than yours or mine?

Everyone have the right to express they own opinion, the issue is the

right

place, the right time and the right politeness.

Who gets to define what is the right place, the right time and
the right politeness? Do you have that right? Does anybody else?
I think not. Either we have unlimited free speech, or we have
no free speech at all. So which is it? What exactly do you want,
and what exactly should we all want?

You claim on one hand that "Everyone have the right to express they
own opinion", and on the other hand claim nobody has any right at all.

A very limited free speech is nothing more than a mere privilege
granted by the one who claims to grant that privilege to whomever
he/she so desires? That is no freedom at all, but a form of
censorship that no sysop should support.

Let me make an example:

You are at the theater watching a nice movie,suddenly someone stands up

and

starts speaking about nuclear physics, and the guardian of the theater

says

"It's his opinion and he's free to say anything".

After the physics symposium you're trying to Listen to the movie with some difficulties to link to the story and again the same person stands up and starts speaking agains the man near you that's your friend and if you try to argue about it he starts to offended you and your friend, the guardian says always the same story.

The third time the same person stands up you leave the teather. :)

As I wrote in other echoes, freedom without rules is anarchy and anarchy

is

always bad.

My 2 cents.

"I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend your right
to say it." The poor guy who said that must have lost his head ...

--Lee

--
As Good As It Looks

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Alan,

I have never found the rules of any area to be a problem and if I did I
would simply go to another area.

It's a pity others feel a need for everyone to conform to their choice.

I respect the rules the moderators have put in place.

So do I. Which explains why we are both still here. :)

As far as access to sysop areas, I have respect for my fellow operators.

Same as sysops, trolls are equal opportunity assholes.

So what's your problem?

--Lee

--
Your Hole Is Our Goal

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Alan,

As I wrote in other echoes, freedom without rules is anarchy and anarchy is
always bad.

There is an element of anarchy in fidonet that's not hard to see. There is no law enforcement and if there was, there is no place to put the "bad" guys.

In spite of that Fidonet can still be a good place if Fidonet operators

care

about it and take the steps needed to make it so.

Controlled anarchy is not anarchy. Either everybody gets to play,
or only a selected few get to play. Can't have it both ways.

K.A.O.S. vs K.O.N.T.R.O.L.

Which do you want?

Ziegfried, or Maxwell Smart?

Or maybe you'd prefer to be Agent 99.

Nah. You don't qualify. Not pretty enough. :)

--Lee

--
Every Bottom Needs A Top

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello David,

I find myself skipping over Lee's posting rather quickly if I look at
them at all. His postings don't cost me any more above what I pay

already.

This is excatly why we need specific rules for everything, otherwise

people

will keep trying outsmart one another all the time...

I have never found the rules of any area to be a problem and if I did I
would simply go to another area.

Your system, your choice.

A sysop is lord and master of his/her own system.
I have no problem with that, and question no sysop
as to how he/she wants to run his/her system.

Would I want others to tell me how to run my own system?
No. And why should I? Why should anybody else? The clear
authority resides with individual sysops, not any outsider
or outside group.

It's a pity others feel a need for everyone to conform to their choice.

They sound like little girls at a slumber party.

--Lee

--
Often Licked, Never Beaten

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Karel,

If you cannot afford to pursue this hobby, then should
you be pursuing it?

I can.

Trolls have mirrors that reflect sunlight.
Those mirrors can be redirected elsewhere, creating
more messages than any system can handle ...

Then why do we not have those rules? Could it be that not
everyone agrees with your view?

My point was opposite. Live and let live. Unfortunately, we are people and in general, to prevent misuse, we are creating rules.

Rules? Oh, boy! Munch! Munch! Thankyouberrymuch!

I expressed my opinion.

The more the merrier. :)

--Lee

--
Your Hole Is Our Goal

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

I respect the rules the moderators have put in place.

So do I. Which explains why we are both still here. :)

As far as access to sysop areas, I have respect for my fellow operators.

Same as sysops, trolls are equal opportunity assholes.

So what's your problem?

The above was a reply to David's comment. I never mentioned any problem.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Or maybe you'd prefer to be Agent 99.

Nah. You don't qualify. Not pretty enough. :)

The girls tell me I am desirable.. but I have nothing on Agent 99. :)

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

On 21/09/2019 18:34, Alan Ianson -> David Drummond wrote:

It's a pity others feel a need for everyone to conform to their choice.

I respect the rules the moderators have put in place.

I have still not seen a rule stating that the postings of that echo may not be cross-posted to this one.

As far as access to sysop areas, I have respect for my fellow operators.

If LL became nodelisted, would his expressed opinions become more acceptable?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Straylia Mate (3:640/305)