• Echolist Keeper

    From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to All on Thursday, March 07, 2019 00:49:43
    Hello Everybody,

    Funny that Zone 2 has an Echolist Keeper but no Echolist,
    and Zone 1 has an Echolist but no Echolist Keeper.

    3.4. Echolist Keeper
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    It is the duty of the Echolist Keeper to compile and make available a
    listing of Echoes on the Backbone whose list they maintain. The content
    and format of the list shall be at the sole discretion of the Echolist
    Keeper, but shall include the Echo name, Moderator's name and
    Moderator's netmail address for each Echo. The Echolist Keeper shall
    also hold copies of the requirements applicable to each listed Echo
    (The Echo Rules). Ideally the Echolist Keeper should be granted an administrative address by the Zone Nodelist Co-Ordinator.

    Of course, no private elist/echolist has any official status in
    Fidonet. Isn't that right? But hey. At least Zone 2 does have
    an official echomail policy, quite unlike Zone 1, which has no
    policy (or moderators) at all.

    --Lee

    --
    Our Nuts, Your Mouth

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Lee Lofaso on Thursday, March 07, 2019 11:18:18
    On 7/03/2019 09:49, Lee Lofaso -> All wrote:
    Hello Everybody,

    Funny that Zone 2 has an Echolist Keeper but no Echolist,
    and Zone 1 has an Echolist but no Echolist Keeper.

    3.4. Echolist Keeper
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    It is the duty of the Echolist Keeper to compile and make available a listing of Echoes on the Backbone whose list they maintain.

    Could it be that Z2 has no Echolist because they have no "backbone" to carry the echoes?

    I suspect that this "rule" was written by Z1...

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to David Drummond on Wednesday, March 06, 2019 21:26:09
    On 07 Mar 19 11:18:18, David Drummond said the following to Lee Lofaso:

    Could it be that Z2 has no Echolist because they have no "backbone" to carr the echoes?

    Ahh David's back! Where have you been?

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Nick Andre on Thursday, March 07, 2019 14:52:58
    On 6/03/2019 21:26, Nick Andre -> David Drummond wrote:

    Could it be that Z2 has no Echolist because they have no "backbone"
    to carry the echoes?

    Ahh David's back! Where have you been?

    Around and about. I retired from the working world a couple of years ago and now I spend some of my time travelling around with my ute and "slide on camper".

    While I'm on the road I have limited connectivity - but I find other things out
    there to capture my interest day to day.

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Nick Andre on Thursday, March 07, 2019 07:41:16
    Could it be that Z2 has no Echolist because they have no "backbone" NA>DD> to carr the echoes?

    Ahh David's back! Where have you been?

    Probably eating dust on his bike while discovering he really lives on an island
    and escape is impossible...

    You'll find out when you retire ... if you retire ... ever ...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR41
    * Origin: Ceci n'est pas un courriel (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to David Drummond on Thursday, March 07, 2019 07:42:18
    Could it be that Z2 has no Echolist because they have no "backbone" to carry the echoes?

    Sorta, well observed.

    I suspect that this "rule" was written by Z1...

    Sorta, well observed.

    Several Z2 regions dropped the majority of the echoes because they serve no purpose anyway other than the self-gratification of the self-appointed moderator.

    My Region has 2 or 3 left with minor traffic, same for R28 where only a few echoes remain and no backbone-system is needed. Likewise for R24, they may have
    some more echoes but not many I think... most people linking to eachother you don't need a backbone.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR41
    * Origin: Ceci n'est pas un courriel (2:292/854)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Ward Dossche on Thursday, March 07, 2019 20:19:20
    On 7/03/2019 07:41, Ward Dossche -> Nick Andre wrote:
    Could it be that Z2 has no Echolist because they have no "backbone"
    to carr the echoes?

    Ahh David's back! Where have you been?

    Probably eating dust on his bike while discovering he really lives on an island and escape is impossible...

    I don't ride any more RSI issues in the elbows...


    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Lee Lofaso on Thursday, March 07, 2019 13:10:48
    Hi Lee,

    On 2019-03-07 00:49:43, you wrote to All:

    Funny that Zone 2 has an Echolist Keeper

    We do?

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to David Drummond on Thursday, March 07, 2019 11:56:30
    On 2019 Mar 07 11:18:18, you wrote to Lee Lofaso:

    3.4. Echolist Keeper
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    It is the duty of the Echolist Keeper to compile and make available a
    listing of Echoes on the Backbone whose list they maintain.

    Could it be that Z2 has no Echolist because they have no "backbone" to carry the echoes?

    I suspect that this "rule" was written by Z1...

    if that's from the Z1-rejected Echomail Policy 1 (aka EP1) document, then yes, it originated in Z1 with input from moderators and others from all over the network, TTBOMK... Z1 rejected it, as written, for various reasons that i do not recall off hand...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... This message was made with recycled electrons.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to David Drummond on Thursday, March 07, 2019 07:06:00
    David Drummond wrote to Nick Andre <=-

    While I'm on the road I have limited connectivity - but I find other things out there to capture my interest day to day.

    Oh, dear - we lost another one to REAL LIFE.



    ... Have you done something wrong?
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.51
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Friday, March 08, 2019 00:00:12
    Hello mark,

    3.4. Echolist Keeper
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    It is the duty of the Echolist Keeper to compile and make available
    a
    listing of Echoes on the Backbone whose list they maintain.

    Could it be that Z2 has no Echolist because they have no "backbone"
    to
    carry the echoes?

    I suspect that this "rule" was written by Z1...

    if that's from the Z1-rejected Echomail Policy 1 (aka EP1) document, then yes, it originated in Z1 with input from moderators and others from all over the network, TTBOMK... Z1 rejected it, as written, for various
    reasons
    that i do not recall off hand...

    Zone 1 does not have an echomail policy. Does not need one.
    Has a Robot for that purposes. This Backbone Robot Keeper is
    appointed by the OBO, and does all things, for all nodelist
    clerks, in Zone 1.

    This is part of a help file, which explains it all -

    Overseer of Backbone Operations (OBO) - Person responsible for the
    day-to-day operation of the North American Backbone at the zone
    level. He coordinates routing to ensure reliable and efficient
    transport of echomail and Backbone-routed netmail while avoiding
    creation of duplicate messages. He also serves as liaison to the
    ZEC and to other distribution systems.

    Backbone Robot Keeper - Person responsible for the maintenance and
    operation of the Backbone Robot program. This program automates
    certain aspects of Backbone operation, as described in this file.
    The Backbone Robot Keeper is appointed by the OBO.

    Echomail Coordinators (ECs) - Echomail Coordinators have been
    recognized by Fidonet since 1987. The Zone Echomail Coordinator
    (ZEC) coordinates echomail at the zone level. Region Echomail
    Coordinators (RECs) coordinate echomail at the region level.
    Net Echomail Coordinators (NECs) coordinate echomail at the net
    level.

    So, this "person" (which is a robot), is a trained puppy to do
    the bidding of the Z1C? Who trained it? If never trained, I sure
    hope it does not pee or defecate on somebody's carpet ...

    --Lee

    --
    Often Licked, Never Beaten

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to David Drummond on Friday, March 08, 2019 00:00:24
    Hello David,

    Funny that Zone 2 has an Echolist Keeper but no Echolist,
    and Zone 1 has an Echolist but no Echolist Keeper.

    3.4. Echolist Keeper
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    It is the duty of the Echolist Keeper to compile and make available a
    listing of Echoes on the Backbone whose list they maintain.

    Could it be that Z2 has no Echolist because they have no "backbone" to
    carry
    the echoes?

    The idea of an Echolist Keeper was a proposal - for Zone 2 only.
    The idea of an Echolist was a reality - for a select few in Zone 1.
    The idea of any zone needing a "backbone" for a handful of echoes
    is just plumb nuts.

    I suspect that this "rule" was written by Z1...

    More likely by only one nutcase rather than an entire zone ...

    --Lee

    --
    Every Bottom Needs A Top

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Wilfred van Velzen on Friday, March 08, 2019 00:00:29
    Hello Wilfred,

    Funny that Zone 2 has an Echolist Keeper

    We do?

    It was a proposal. Just a proposal. For Zone 2 only.
    Apparently never accepted by the Echolist Keeper to be.
    Whoever he/she/it was supposed to be.

    --Lee

    --
    We Put Big Loads In Tight Places

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Lee Lofaso on Friday, March 08, 2019 12:44:20
    On 8/03/2019 09:00, Lee Lofaso -> David Drummond wrote:

    Could it be that Z2 has no Echolist because they have no "backbone" to carry
    the echoes?

    The idea of an Echolist Keeper was a proposal - for Zone 2 only.
    The idea of an Echolist was a reality - for a select few in Zone 1.
    The idea of any zone needing a "backbone" for a handful of echoes
    is just plumb nuts.

    I suspect that this "rule" was written by Z1...

    More likely by only one nutcase rather than an entire zone ...

    Indeed! The chance of all of them agreeing on something would be most unlikely.

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Lee Lofaso on Friday, March 08, 2019 12:45:05
    On 8/03/2019 09:00, Lee Lofaso -> Wilfred van Velzen wrote:
    Hello Wilfred,

    Funny that Zone 2 has an Echolist Keeper

    We do?

    It was a proposal. Just a proposal. For Zone 2 only.
    Apparently never accepted by the Echolist Keeper to be.
    Whoever he/she/it was supposed to be.

    Even when there was nothing to "keep"?

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to David Drummond on Friday, March 08, 2019 08:44:54
    I suspect that this "rule" was written by Z1...

    More likely by only one nutcase rather than an entire zone ...

    Indeed! The chance of all of them agreeing on something would be most unlikely.

    Having lived "the old days" there was a case to be made for an institution such
    as "a backbone".

    Then something happened...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR41
    * Origin: Ceci n'est pas un courriel (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to David Drummond on Friday, March 08, 2019 08:45:27
    Funny that Zone 2 has an Echolist Keeper

    We do?

    It was a proposal. Just a proposal. For Zone 2 only.
    Apparently never accepted by the Echolist Keeper to be.
    Whoever he/she/it was supposed to be.

    Even when there was nothing to "keep"?

    There was an echolist-keeper in Z2 by the name of Peter Witschi from Switzerland, some 25 years ago or so. It was decided that the Z1 and Z2 echolists would be merged into 1. It would be managed by this Peter Witschi.

    Then something happened ...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR41
    * Origin: Ceci n'est pas un courriel (2:292/854)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Lee Lofaso on Friday, March 08, 2019 03:37:30
    On 08 Mar 19 00:00:12, Lee Lofaso said the following to Mark Lewis:

    So, this "person" (which is a robot), is a trained puppy to do
    the bidding of the Z1C? Who trained it? If never trained, I sure
    hope it does not pee or defecate on somebody's carpet ...

    I'm just happy and content with the knowledge that I live inside your head for free and eternally troll you simply by occupying the 1:1/0 address.

    The discussions about you, Nodelist Police Commissioner Van Velzen, Alexy "I can't Git No Satisfaction" Vissarionov and others continue at tremendous length in the Zone 1 Secret Society echoes.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Lee Lofaso on Friday, March 08, 2019 10:52:15
    Hi Lee,

    On 2019-03-08 03:37:30, Nick Andre wrote to you:

    Nodelist Police Commissioner Van Velzen,

    Cool! I have been promoted to Commissioner by the head of "the Zone 1 Secret Society". Of course that was a secret too, so I didn't know that myself untill now...


    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Ward Dossche on Friday, March 08, 2019 04:47:50
    On 07 Mar 19 07:41:16, Ward Dossche said the following to Nick Andre:

    Probably eating dust on his bike while discovering he really lives on an island and escape is impossible...

    You'll find out when you retire ... if you retire ... ever ...

    I'll likely end up having to work for a long, long time.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Wilfred Van Velzen on Friday, March 08, 2019 05:09:14
    On 08 Mar 19 10:52:15, Wilfred Van Velzen said the following to Lee Lofaso:

    Nodelist Police Commissioner Van Velzen,

    Cool! I have been promoted to Commissioner by the head of "the Zone 1 Secre Society". Of course that was a secret too, so I didn't know that myself unt now...

    Its also a big secret why Lee has Nodelist Derangement Syndrome... his tap-dancing around it gets too fast for my eyesight.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Roger Nelson@1:3828/7 to Nick Andre on Friday, March 08, 2019 07:52:16
    SGID: 1:229/426 231D1BF0
    On 07 Mar 19 07:41:16, Ward Dossche said the following to Nick Andre:

    Probably eating dust on his bike while discovering he really lives on
    an island and escape is impossible...

    You'll find out when you retire ... if you retire ... ever ...

    I'll likely end up having to work for a long, long time.

    I did for a long time, too, and there are many bumps along the way.


    Regards,

    Roger

    --- D'Bridge (SR41)
    * Origin: I'll never get over Macho Grande (1:3828/7)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Nick Andre on Friday, March 08, 2019 08:35:00
    Nick Andre wrote to Lee Lofaso <=-

    The discussions about you, Nodelist Police Commissioner Van Velzen,
    Alexy "I can't Git No Satisfaction" Vissarionov and others continue at tremendous length in the Zone 1 Secret Society echoes.

    I thought the first rule of "Secret Society Echoes" was that you do not
    speak about "Secret Society Echoes"?



    ... How does this work, is there an orientation?
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.51
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From TERRY ROATI@3:640/1321 to Ward Dossche on Friday, March 08, 2019 20:19:10
    Having rejoined Fido after 15+ years and moved from Zone 6 Philippines to
    Zone 3 Australia it would have made it easier if there were a Z3 echolist for the few echos we have in Z3 when setting up a new system and of course it
    helps if there are changes (probably need a blue moon).

    Thanks to Paul Quinn it was soon sorted.

    Something happened is a great way of saying it.

    Terry

    On Mar 08, 2019 08:44am, Ward Dossche wrote to David Drummond:

    I suspect that this "rule" was written by Z1...

    More likely by only one nutcase rather than an entire zone ...

    Indeed! The chance of all of them agreeing on something would be most
    unlikely.

    Having lived "the old days" there was a case to be made for an
    institution such as "a backbone".

    Then something happened...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR41
    * Origin: Ceci n'est pas un courriel (2:292/854)

    Kind regards, Terry Roati -tfb-bbs.org

    ... Platinum Xpress & Wildcat!..... Nice!!!!
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v7.0
    * Origin: The File Bank BBS! (3:640/1321)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to TERRY ROATI on Saturday, March 09, 2019 08:12:00
    TERRY ROATI wrote to Ward Dossche <=-


    Having rejoined Fido after 15+ years and moved from Zone 6 Philippines
    to Zone 3 Australia it would have made it easier if there were a Z3 echolist for the few echos we have in Z3 when setting up a new system
    and of course it helps if there are changes (probably need a blue
    moon).

    Yeah, there seems to be an aversion to the idea of an echolist, probably because people are averse to giving power to one person to maintain the
    list. Who said Anarchy is dead?

    I've heard arguments that with multiple feeds that there's no need for an echolist (no backbone, ergo, no echolist) but the point that you need to
    find out what's available, somehow, seems to be missed.



    ... Have you done something wrong?
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.51
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Kurt Weiske on Saturday, March 09, 2019 17:41:15
    Hi Kurt,

    On 2019-03-09 08:12:00, you wrote to TERRY ROATI:

    I've heard arguments that with multiple feeds that there's no need for
    an echolist (no backbone, ergo, no echolist) but the point that you
    need to find out what's available, somehow, seems to be missed.

    Just follow the STATS area for a couple of weeks. You'll get a pretty good idea
    of what's available and has traffic...

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From TERRY ROATI@3:640/1321 to Kurt Weiske on Sunday, March 10, 2019 11:59:18
    Yep, some people forget that there are old sysops and new sysops joining fidonet, it would be difficult and time consuming to setup a BBS without these documents. Of that is why there were so many useful programs made to help do this.

    An Echolist keeper should only be an administrative role, information in document out. But your right that some people see power in any role.

    Every now again some people need to reminded that this is only a hobby to enjoyed but for some being annoying is their real hobby.

    On Mar 09, 2019 08:20am, Kurt Weiske wrote to TERRY ROATI:

    TERRY ROATI wrote to Ward Dossche <=-


    Having rejoined Fido after 15+ years and moved from Zone 6 Philippines
    to Zone 3 Australia it would have made it easier if there were a Z3
    echolist for the few echos we have in Z3 when setting up a new system
    and of course it helps if there are changes (probably need a blue
    moon).

    Yeah, there seems to be an aversion to the idea of an echolist, probably because people are averse to giving power to one person to maintain the list. Who said Anarchy is dead?

    I've heard arguments that with multiple feeds that there's no need for
    an echolist (no backbone, ergo, no echolist) but the point that you
    need to find out what's available, somehow, seems to be missed.



    ... Have you done something wrong?
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.51
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech
    (1:218/700)

    Kind regards, Terry Roati -tfb-bbs.org

    ... Platinum Xpress & Wildcat!..... Nice!!!!
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v7.0
    * Origin: The File Bank BBS! (3:640/1321)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Kurt Weiske on Sunday, March 10, 2019 10:34:46
    On 2019 Mar 09 08:12:00, you wrote to TERRY ROATI:

    the point that you need to find out what's available, somehow, seems
    to be missed.

    completely astounding since that's the whole reason the echolist was created in
    the first place...

    ----- snip -----
    FidoNews 5-33 Page 7 15 Aug 1988


    Mike Fuchs
    1:1/201

    EchoList - The EchoMail Conference List
    (It's bAAAAaaaack...)

    Ever wonder what all those EchoMail conferences are about?
    Ever wonder if there was already a conference on some
    specific topic? Well that's why the EchoList was originally
    created. And that's why I've resurrected it.

    For those of you who might not be familiar with it, a little
    history...

    The EchoList is an informal listing of EchoMail conferences,
    as described by each conference's moderator. It is now a
    monthly publication which attempts to document certain
    interesting information about EchoMail Conferences;
    "interesting" to people who would like to participate,
    interesting to EchoMail Coordinators and those who route the
    conference traffic, and potentially interesting to the
    Conference Moderator. The base product of the EchoList
    database is the detailed Conference listing. But, as needs
    are identified which can be satisfied with the available
    information, additional reports and analyses can be
    developed.

    The EchoList was originated by Thomas Kenny, who maintained
    it as a text file completely manually. It was a time
    consuming effort, and was updated on a very sporadic and
    infrequent basis. The last edition published this way was
    December 1987.

    Several people (myself included) were working with Thomas on
    developing ways to automate the maintenance, and provide a
    structured database that could be used for things other than
    a simple conference listing. As a result, he assembled a
    specification for submitting messages that would be used for
    updating the list. Unfortunately, Thomas decided to drop
    out of FidoNet before any of the code was completed. He
    continues to have my gratitude for all he put in to getting
    the EchoList as far as he did.

    Since I was interested (for purely personal desire) in
    having an EchoList, I picked-up that last 1987 EchoList,
    built an R:base database and application, and keyed the
    whole thing in. The result is a semi-automated update
    application, and some nice report generation facilities.
    There's a lot more to be done. It's still a VERY labor-
    intensive task. But, I'm happy to say I've been able to
    publish all updates received for the last 3 months on-time.
    Now, I'm going to try and ruin that by inviting more
    updates...

    HISTORY LESSON OVER...
    That's why I wrote this article. It has been pointed out to

    FidoNews 5-33 Page 8 15 Aug 1988


    me that there are a lot of people who don't realize the
    EchoList is available. Most importantly, there are a lot of
    Conference Moderators who don't know, and as a result their
    conferences aren't in, or will soon be dropped from, that
    list.

    You see, one of things that seems to be widely agreed upon
    is that, in order to be really useful, an EchoList needs
    some control criteria. Hating bureaucracy as I do, I've
    only implemented two (at this point). First, in order to be
    listed, a conference must have a responsible party to whom
    questions can be directed; that person is the Moderator.
    Second, since reference information is only valuable if it's
    up-to-date, an EchoList conference entry must be updated via
    message to me on a regular basis.

    So there's the reason for the article. A number of
    conferences have already been dropped because they had no
    moderator identified. (How anybody's supposed to join a
    conference when there's no one identified to contact, I'll
    never know, but so be it.) The other thing is that most of
    the entries' last-update dates are VERY old. Starting with
    this next EchoList, I will start enforcing a purge criteria.
    An awful lot of conferences will be dropped as a result.
    Many are dead wood anyway. But there are many such
    conferences I know are alive and well, and I hope this
    article gets the message to those moderators. If you
    frequent a conference important to you, how about letting
    the moderator know about the EchoList?

    Oh yeah, I lied. There is one more control, but it is for
    the Moderators themselves. A Moderator can submit an entry
    that becomes password protected. From then-on, the
    moderator has some feeling of control over the information
    listed in the EchoList for their conference.

    SO, HOW DO YOU UPDATE THE ECHOLIST?
    There are two ARC files that I publish. One is the EchoList
    itself--which I'll get back to. The other is ELISTMOD.ARC.
    It is essential that you get a copy of this file, as it
    contains detailed instructions on the update message format
    and contents. This article is going to be too long as it
    is, so I can't put the whole thing here. Suffice it to say,
    it's a fairly simple, but strictly structured, message
    format that has to be NetMailed to me at 1:1/201.

    The other file I referred-to is ELISTnnn.ARC, where nnn is
    the edition. The August 1, 1988 edition is X03, and it
    contains the basic, detailed Conference list, and a few
    ancillary cross-reference listings. I ship both of these
    files, when updated, to each of the Regional EchoMail
    Coordinators in the U.S., plus the Zone Gates for Zones 2,
    3, and 7 (in hopes they will pass them along). I have no
    idea whether any of these people pass them along, make them
    available for download, or what. I just hope they do. If
    you can't find them locally, you can use the "magic" file

    FidoNews 5-33 Page 9 15 Aug 1988


    names (specify them without a period or file extension):

    ECHOMOD - to get the latest EchoList update instructions,
    ECHOLIST - to get the latest EchoList,

    in a SEAdog or WaZoo file request to 1:1/201. They are also
    first-time-user downloadable from my BBS at (201)506-0472.

    WHAT IS A MODERATOR?
    I needed to establish some definitions for the EchoList, so
    these are MY definitions and others' may vary. Critical to
    the identification of an EchoMail conference is the
    identification of its Moderator. A Moderator is the person
    who defines a Conference, and keeps it on track; making sure
    message content is within reasonable bounds of the topic for
    which the conference exists. A Moderator should also set
    the base rules of the conference and cut off abuses of the
    media when they occur. IF A CONFERENCE HAS NO MODERATOR, IT
    WILL NOT BE LISTED IN THE ECHOLIST. If you know of a
    conference which you feel is important to the community and
    it doesn't have a moderator I seriously suggest you consider
    the job. Basically, then, the Moderator "owns" the
    CONFERENCE.

    This is specifically contrasted with ECHOMAIL COORDINATORS.
    A dedicated group of volunteers have identified themselves
    as willing to expedite distribution of national EchoMail
    conferences. There is (identified at the beginning of the
    NodeList) a National EchoMail Coordinator, and one Regional
    EchoMail Coordinator for each FidoNet Region. These people
    run the National EchoMail Backbone, and facilitate timely
    and accurate distribution of the bigger conferences in the
    U.S. They "own" that particular distribution channel, not
    the Conferences themselves.

    There are also nodes who can afford to aggregate a large
    number of Conferences and facilitate distribution. They are
    frequently referred to as EchoMail Hubs, though it's a
    fairly unofficial title, I think.

    SO WHAT'S IN IT?
    I don't want to make this article too long, but as a brief
    overview:

    The minimum information required for an EchoList entry
    includes: The Symbolic Area Name used by the conference, A
    Title or brief descriptive phrase for the conference, the
    Moderator's Name and the Moderator's Node Number. Certain
    Moderators do not want to publicize the AREA: name, and the
    ability to supress the display of the Area Name in the
    EchoList is provided. Perhaps the best way to show all the
    various fields in the EchoList is to show the format for
    submitting additions and updates, so an EchoList update
    message would be...

    To: ECHOLIST

    FidoNews 5-33 Page 10 15 Aug 1988


    At: 1:1/201
    Subject: MODerator UPDate
    or MODerator DELete
    or COORdinator UPDate
    or PARTicipant UPDate

    AREAname <symbolic area name> </NOshow>
    TITLe <brief area title for sorting>
    DESCription <A full description of the conference,
    audience, topics, ...>
    MODerator <moderator name>, <moderator node>
    PASSword <current password>, <new password>
    TOTalnodes <number of nodes carrying this conference>
    VOLume <number of messages>/<MONth or DAY or WEEK>
    RESTrictions </SYSop> </MOD-apvl> </MEMber>
    DISTribution <areas or distribution vehicles of note>
    GATEway <gateways to other zones & networks crossed
    by the conference>
    SEENby <node list>
    PATH <node list>

    Please don't submit an update based solely on this article,
    as there's a lot more documentation in ELISTMOD.ARC. I just
    wanted to give you a flavor for what's there. Constructive
    criticism, advice, and other butting-in is ALWAYS welcome.

    Enjoy,
    And have fun with it!

    - Mike Fuchs, 1:1/201
    ----- snip -----

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... I don't have the solution, but I admire the problem.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Wilfred van Velzen on Sunday, March 10, 2019 11:32:00
    On 2019 Mar 09 17:41:14, you wrote to Kurt Weiske:

    I've heard arguments that with multiple feeds that there's no need for
    an echolist (no backbone, ergo, no echolist) but the point that you
    need to find out what's available, somehow, seems to be missed.

    Just follow the STATS area for a couple of weeks. You'll get a pretty good idea of what's available and has traffic...

    only from those systems that post their statistics to the stats echo and then only if those stats contain data on the echomail they handle... there's only a few systems (3) that even post to the stats echo... plus, how is someone going to find out about the stats echo in the first place? catch-22...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... First thing to go in a zealot? Humor. Second: Perspective.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Wilfred van Velzen on Saturday, March 09, 2019 18:13:00
    Wilfred van Velzen wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-

    Just follow the STATS area for a couple of weeks. You'll get a pretty good idea of what's available and has traffic...

    We should all try to look at Fidonet from the point of view of a new/prospective sysop. I've seen some looking and others joining recently.

    Othernets do a much better job of showing what their nets have to offer
    than we do.


    ... Where are we now?
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.51
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Wilfred van Velzen on Sunday, March 10, 2019 18:25:11
    Hello Wilfred,

    Nodelist Police Commissioner Van Velzen,

    Cool! I have been promoted to Commissioner by the head of "the Zone 1
    Secret
    Society". Of course that was a secret too, so I didn't know that myself untill now...

    Of course, nothing officially exists. You do understand.
    As such, we can neither confirm, nor deny, our own existence.
    Assuming we exist at all. <written in invisible ink>

    --Lee

    --
    Every Bottom Needs A Top

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Nick Andre on Sunday, March 10, 2019 18:25:51
    Hello Nick,

    Probably eating dust on his bike while discovering he really lives on an
    island and escape is impossible...

    You'll find out when you retire ... if you retire ... ever ...

    I'll likely end up having to work for a long, long time.

    Nobody should have to work. Ever.

    In my view, everything ought to be free. That way, we would
    all have the leisure to do whatever want, if and whenever we want.
    Nobody would be forced to do a thing for anybody else, as that
    would be a form of slavery or indentured servitude.

    The idea of having to work 'til you drop is totally anathema
    to me. Especially since the wealthiest of the wealthy do nothing
    at all to earn their keep, choosing to play golf all day at the
    expense of those who have nothing, or next to nothing.

    What we have in office today is a liar and a tax cheat, who
    has surrounded himself with other liars and tax cheats. Some
    of whom have been convicted and sentenced to prison.

    And to think he might actually win a second term. How disgusting
    a people can we be? A guy who loves dictators more than his own
    people, asking for them to reward him by granting him a second
    term? He must really take us all to be fools.

    And maybe we are. So we do have only ourselves to blame.

    --Lee

    --
    We Make Your Wet Dreams Come True

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Wilfred van Velzen on Sunday, March 10, 2019 18:26:42
    Hello Wilfred,

    I've heard arguments that with multiple feeds that there's no need for
    an echolist (no backbone, ergo, no echolist) but the point that you
    need to find out what's available, somehow, seems to be missed.

    Just follow the STATS area for a couple of weeks. You'll get a pretty
    good
    idea of what's available and has traffic...

    Why do that when you can run your own?

    Bjrn Felten wrote a message in JAMNNTPD -

    30 day statistics from March 2018:

    Total number of users: 30
    Total connection time: 38d 12h 37m 17s in 5902 connections
    Total posted messages: 94

    From March 2019:

    Total number of users: 93
    Total connection time: 19d 17h 6m 17s in 7700 connections
    Total posted messages: 214

    I used a slightly modified loganalyser.pl by Johan Billing:


    http://eljaco.se/FILES/Billing/la.rar

    The original:

    http://eljaco.se/FILES/Billing/loganalyzer.zip


    Nobody is dependent on the STATS area anymore. Both sysops
    and probationary sysops can compile their own, thanks to such
    programs being freely available.

    --Lee

    --
    Sleep With Someone New

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Kurt Weiske on Sunday, March 10, 2019 18:27:05
    Hello Kurt,

    Having rejoined Fido after 15+ years and moved from Zone 6 Philippines
    to Zone 3 Australia it would have made it easier if there were a Z3
    echolist for the few echos we have in Z3 when setting up a new system
    and of course it helps if there are changes (probably need a blue
    moon).

    Yeah, there seems to be an aversion to the idea of an echolist, probably because people are averse to giving power to one person to maintain the list. Who said Anarchy is dead?

    A cooperative anarchy is something all can strive for, kind of like
    herding cats. But how many folks truly believe such a task can ever
    be accomplished?

    I've heard arguments that with multiple feeds that there's no need for an echolist (no backbone, ergo, no echolist) but the point that you need to find out what's available, somehow, seems to be missed.

    A pencil and paper works for me. :)

    --Lee

    --
    Laying Pipe Since '88

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to mark lewis on Sunday, March 10, 2019 18:31:49
    how is someone going to find out about the stats echo in the first
    place? catch-22...

    Not really.

    1) Hook up to a JamNNTPd based BBS nearby.

    2) Spend some time reading up on the echoes sounding relevant. And yes, I know that not all "moderators" are all too eager to name "their" echoes well. Their loss...

    3) Register on said JamNNTPd based BBS and start asking questions.

    The rest is a walk in the park, far from Catch-22.


    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Björn Felten on Sunday, March 10, 2019 13:48:08
    On 2019 Mar 10 18:31:48, you wrote to me:

    how is someone going to find out about the stats echo in the first
    place? catch-22...

    Not really.

    yes, really...

    1) Hook up to a JamNNTPd based BBS nearby.

    how? how can yo find them? catch-22 from the start...

    2) Spend some time reading up on the echoes sounding relevant. And
    yes,
    I know that not all "moderators" are all too eager to name "their" echoes well. Their loss...

    3) Register on said JamNNTPd based BBS and start asking questions.

    The rest is a walk in the park, far from Catch-22.

    you start with a double catch-22...

    1. newbies to fidonet won't even know what a JAMNNTPd server/BBS is...
    2. where are they going to find these JAMNNTPd systems...

    maybe it is a triple catch-22 in that they likely don't even know what a news server or news client is... in other words, some folks are assuming others have
    knowledge and/or experience that may not be valid assumptions...

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... BBSing ... time's blackhole.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/1 to mark lewis on Sunday, March 10, 2019 20:36:08
    On 10.3.2019 17:48, mark lewis -> Bjrn Felten :

    1) Hook up to a JamNNTPd based BBS nearby.

    how? how can yo find them?

    Read fidonews. The file, you know. :-D

    'Tommi

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.
    * Origin: smapinntpd/linux @ nntps://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/1)
  • From Robert Stinnett@1:290/10 to Björn Felten on Sunday, March 10, 2019 14:03:01
    Re: Echolist Keeper
    By: Bjrn Felten to mark lewis on Sun Mar 10 2019 06:31 pm

    The rest is a walk in the park, far from Catch-22.


    It is obvious to me that you aren't looking for advice or how to do things better, you have "your way or the highway".

    Walk in the park my ass


    dmxrob BBSing from St. Louis, Missouri since 1988
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
    * Origin: Gateway to the West BBS | St. Louis, Missouri (1:290/10)
  • From Robert Stinnett@1:290/10 to Tommi Koivula on Sunday, March 10, 2019 14:04:32
    Re: Echolist Keeper
    By: Tommi Koivula to mark lewis on Sun Mar 10 2019 08:36 pm

    Read fidonews. The file, you know. :-D

    fidonews.org - the first thing it shows me is newsletters from 1999.

    Real helpful.

    dmxrob BBSing from St. Louis, Missouri since 1988
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
    * Origin: Gateway to the West BBS | St. Louis, Missouri (1:290/10)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Kurt Weiske on Sunday, March 10, 2019 13:47:00
    Kurt Weiske wrote to Wilfred van Velzen <=-

    Just follow the STATS area for a couple of weeks. You'll get a pretty good idea of what's available and has traffic...

    We should all try to look at Fidonet from the point of view of a new/prospective sysop. I've seen some looking and others joining
    recently.

    Othernets do a much better job of showing what their nets have to
    offer than we do.

    Very good point. Most Othernets that I've seen publish (usually
    weekly) an "infopack.zip" or similar. It contains *GOOD*
    instructions on how to apply for a node number (including *WHO* to
    apply to!), a list of echos, a recent nodelist, and more. Really
    very helpful in getting setup for a new network, regardless of previous/current Fido experience.



    ... "42? 7 and a half million years and all you can come up with is 42?!"
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Björn Felten on Sunday, March 10, 2019 13:54:00
    Bjrn Felten wrote to mark lewis <=-

    how is someone going to find out about the stats echo in the first
    place? catch-22...

    Not really.

    Oh yes, really.

    1) Hook up to a JamNNTPd based BBS nearby.

    How is some newbie going to find such a thing? 99+% of users
    (including most Fido sysops) don't even know what the term
    JamNNTPd means! Or what NNTP/Usenet means. Or how to access such
    a thing, including what client software is available. Or how to
    use such software. Or how to find a Usenet server. Or.....

    3) Register on said JamNNTPd based BBS and start asking
    questions.

    The rest is a walk in the park, far from Catch-22.

    You assume/presume an awful lot. Virtually nobody could ever do
    that. And please, don't cue up the "Well, back in my day, a
    'effin potential sysop could do....." bullcrap, either.



    ... Computer Hacker wanted. Must have own axe.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Joacim Melin@2:201/120 to mark lewis on Sunday, March 10, 2019 21:02:38
    On 2019 Mar 10 18:31:48, you wrote to me:

    how is someone going to find out about the stats echo in the first
    place? catch-22...

    Not really.

    yes, really...

    1) Hook up to a JamNNTPd based BBS nearby.

    how? how can yo find them? catch-22 from the start...

    2) Spend some time reading up on the echoes sounding relevant. And
    yes,
    I know that not all "moderators" are all too eager to name "their" echoes

    well. Their loss...

    3) Register on said JamNNTPd based BBS and start asking questions.

    The rest is a walk in the park, far from Catch-22.

    you start with a double catch-22...

    1. newbies to fidonet won't even know what a JAMNNTPd server/BBS
    is...
    2. where are they going to find these JAMNNTPd systems...

    Do they need to know? Is it essential to know this to obtain a node number and
    get connected to Fidonet? I think not.


    --- NiKom v2.5.0
    * Origin: Delta City (deltacity.se, Vallentuna, Sweden) (2:201/120.0)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Lee Lofaso on Sunday, March 10, 2019 18:15:39
    On 10 Mar 19 18:25:51, Lee Lofaso said the following to Nick Andre:

    I'll likely end up having to work for a long, long time.

    Nobody should have to work. Ever.

    In my view, everything ought to be free. That way, we would
    all have the leisure to do whatever want, if and whenever we want.
    Nobody would be forced to do a thing for anybody else, as that
    would be a form of slavery or indentured servitude.

    Hahahahahahahahaahahahahaha

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Monday, March 11, 2019 01:48:47
    Hello Bjrn,

    how is someone going to find out about the stats echo in the first
    place? catch-22...

    Not really.

    1) Hook up to a JamNNTPd based BBS nearby.

    2) Spend some time reading up on the echoes sounding relevant. And yes, I know that not all "moderators" are all too eager to name "their" echoes well. Their loss...

    3) Register on said JamNNTPd based BBS and start asking questions.

    The rest is a walk in the park, far from Catch-22.

    Been there. Done that. But no STATS echo found.
    Oh. There it is. Do I have to add it first before
    I can read it?

    --Lee

    --
    Everybody Loves Our Buns

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Bjrn Felten@2:203/2 to Lee Lofaso on Monday, March 11, 2019 02:11:52
    Been there. Done that. But no STATS echo found.
    Oh. There it is. Do I have to add it first before
    I can read it?

    Yeah, there is that big problem first, of course.

    Never underestimate the newer generations. My six year old grandsons managed
    to take over my TV-set from their iPad, and I didn't even have Chromecast running by then.



    ..

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12.73 to Joacim Melin on Sunday, March 10, 2019 21:33:44
    On 2019 Mar 10 21:02:38, you wrote to me:

    The rest is a walk in the park, far from Catch-22.

    you start with a double catch-22...

    1. newbies to fidonet won't even know what a JAMNNTPd server/BBS
    is...
    2. where are they going to find these JAMNNTPd systems...

    Do they need to know? Is it essential to know this to obtain a node
    number
    and get connected to Fidonet? I think not.

    according to BF, everyone is already born with this knowledge... it is so easy anyone can do it in their sleep and wake in the morning with a fully connected and configured FTN setup ;)

    )\/(ark

    Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
    Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
    ... Hard DISK? Gee lady, I misunderstood you.
    ---
    * Origin: (1:3634/12.73)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/6 to Robert Stinnett on Monday, March 11, 2019 15:36:10
      By: Tommi Koivula to mark lewis on Sun Mar 10 2019 08:36 pm

    Read fidonews. The file, you know. :-D

    fidonews.org - the first thing it shows me is newsletters from 1999.

    Real helpful.

    Indeed.

    Maybe I should start publishing the magazine at fidonews.mine.nu or news.fidonet.fi ...

    'Tommi

    ---
    * Origin: nntps://fidonews.mine.nu - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/6.0)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Lee Lofaso on Monday, March 11, 2019 06:52:00
    Lee Lofaso wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-

    I've heard arguments that with multiple feeds that there's no need for an echolist (no backbone, ergo, no echolist) but the point that you need to find out what's available, somehow, seems to be missed.

    A pencil and paper works for me. :)

    Again, the point here is regarding new and prospective sysops. Othernets
    are attracting new and returning sysops in much greater numbers than
    Fidonet, my thinking is in part because of having timely and accurate information about the net available to a prospective sysop.

    Pencil and paper may work for you, but you're missing the bigger point.


    ... Do you know where you are?
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.51
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Dan Clough on Monday, March 11, 2019 06:56:00
    Dan Clough wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-

    Very good point. Most Othernets that I've seen publish (usually
    weekly) an "infopack.zip" or similar. It contains *GOOD*
    instructions on how to apply for a node number (including *WHO* to
    apply to!), a list of echos, a recent nodelist, and more. Really
    very helpful in getting setup for a new network, regardless of previous/current Fido experience.

    Contrast with Fidonet - "Find a regional coordinator, set up your system
    with a /9999 address, poll them, and wait an indeterminate time for instructions..."

    "You want a list of echoes? Google Fidonet echoes, and hopefully you'll
    find the updated web page."

    Now, I'm liking the idea of a Fidonet infopack with as much timely
    information as we can muster and clear instructions.



    ... What do you think of the guests?
    --- MultiMail/XT v0.51
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From Joacim Melin@2:201/120 to Tommi Koivula on Monday, March 11, 2019 16:30:11
    By: Tommi Koivula to mark lewis on Sun Mar 10 2019 08:36 pm >>
    Read fidonews. The file, you know. :-D

    fidonews.org - the first thing it shows me is newsletters from 1999. >>
    Real helpful.

    Indeed.

    Maybe I should start publishing the magazine at fidonews.mine.nu or
    news.fidonet.fi

    I think Fidonews should be published whenever there is some actual content to read, then people would actually read it.


    --- NiKom v2.5.0
    * Origin: Delta City (deltacity.se, Vallentuna, Sweden) (2:201/120.0)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/360.8110 to Joacim Melin on Monday, March 11, 2019 20:19:14
    Hi Joacim.

    11 Mar 19 16:30:10, you wrote to me:

    I think Fidonews should be published whenever there is some actual content to read, then people would actually read it.

    Indeed. Nowadays there's nothing much than all the same shit week by week posted by a robot. Plan to support the current form of fidonews withdrawn.

    'Tommi

    ---
    * Origin: ==================================== (2:221/360.8110)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Joacim Melin on Monday, March 11, 2019 13:55:37
    On 11 Mar 19 16:30:11, Joacim Melin said the following to Tommi Koivula:

    Maybe I should start publishing the magazine at fidonews.mine.nu or
    news.fidonet.fi

    I think Fidonews should be published whenever there is some actual content read, then people would actually read it.

    Even though I may disagree with Bjorn on some things, I can at least look forward to the snooze being published "on time". It at least lets me know that it has not been forgotten. I'd rather have no content than no snooze at all.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to Kurt Weiske on Monday, March 11, 2019 16:50:00
    Kurt Weiske wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    Very good point. Most Othernets that I've seen publish (usually
    weekly) an "infopack.zip" or similar. It contains *GOOD*
    instructions on how to apply for a node number (including *WHO* to
    apply to!), a list of echos, a recent nodelist, and more. Really
    very helpful in getting setup for a new network, regardless of previous/current Fido experience.

    Contrast with Fidonet - "Find a regional coordinator, set up your
    system with a /9999 address, poll them, and wait an indeterminate
    time for instructions..."

    Careful, that's a little too clear and concise. I don't think we
    should tell a n00b to use /9999, they should have to figure that
    out for themselves, like our Grandpas did... :)

    "You want a list of echoes? Google Fidonet echoes, and hopefully
    you'll find the updated web page."

    Yes, but not very likely.

    Now, I'm liking the idea of a Fidonet infopack with as much
    timely information as we can muster and clear instructions.

    Me too. We may have started something here. In fact I'm pretty
    sure of that, and more to come.


    ... A day without sunshine is like night.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Joacim Melin on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 13:54:44
    On 11/03/2019 16:30, Joacim Melin -> Tommi Koivula wrote:

    Maybe I should start publishing the magazine at fidonews.mine.nu
    or news.fidonet.fi

    I think Fidonews should be published whenever there is some actual
    content to read, then people would actually read it.

    Have you considered submitting an article?

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Tommi Koivula on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 13:58:05
    On 12/03/2019 03:19, Tommi Koivula -> Joacim Melin wrote:

    I think Fidonews should be published whenever there is some actual content
    to read, then people would actually read it.

    Indeed. Nowadays there's nothing much than all the same shit week by
    week posted by a robot. Plan to support the current form of fidonews withdrawn.

    Bugger! Now I'll never get to read the article you've penned.

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Dan Clough on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 13:59:38
    On 12/03/2019 08:50, Dan Clough -> Kurt Weiske wrote:

    Contrast with Fidonet - "Find a regional coordinator, set up your
    system with a /9999 address, poll them, and wait an indeterminate
    time for instructions..."

    Careful, that's a little too clear and concise. I don't think we
    should tell a n00b to use /9999, they should have to figure that
    out for themselves, like our Grandpas did... :


    Could it be that Grandpa managed to read the Fidonet Policy which documented that procedure?

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Robert Stinnett@1:290/10 to David Drummond on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 18:02:46
    Re: Echolist Keeper
    By: David Drummond to Dan Clough on Wed Mar 13 2019 08:06 am

    Once upon a time Fidonet sysops were "computer enthusiasts". Now they have turned into "point and click"ers.

    Everyone has to start somewhere. I've been working in the IT industry all my life, and have programmed in everything from Assembler to C++ to Javascript and beyond. That doesn't mean that I can just sit down in front of any software package and be an expert in it within minutes. Especially one that is not documented, or the documentation is hidden/horrendously out of date.

    Many folks I know who are getting back into BBSing are doing it because they want to tinker again -- homelabbers are popping up everywhere. But they all need guidance. Someone to help them, not criticize everything they do. They want and are looking for a community - not some rigid, unchanging, "Well wait 10 years and MAYBE we'll think about it" hierarchy.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
    * Origin: Gateway to the West BBS | St. Louis, Missouri (1:290/10)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to David Drummond on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 19:43:00
    David Drummond wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    Good point. I know P4 documents that, but the point was that the instructions could be done much better. Many of the Othernets
    "infopacks" are great examples of this. I believe there are some
    works in progress on trying that for Fidonet... :)

    There have been "infopacks" published in the past, time and time
    again. They tend to favour particular software and as that
    software is "superseded" then the "infopack" becomes obsolete.

    I have not seen or heard of a Fidonet infopack. Ever.

    Once upon a time Fidonet sysops were "computer enthusiasts". Now
    they have turned into "point and click"ers.

    That's a pretty broad generalization, perhaps true for the very
    youngest who have never known anything else (other than
    GUI/point-click). But there are still plenty of "enthusiasts" out
    here, including me, who are not that way.



    ... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to David Drummond on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 21:29:29
    Re: Echolist Keeper
    By: David Drummond to Dan Clough on Wed Mar 13 2019 08:06 am

    Once upon a time Fidonet sysops were "computer enthusiasts". Now they have turned into "point and click"ers.

    BBSing has always been about mutual assistance and gets easier as software matures. I could complain that running Synchronet on a multi-user system is "cheating" compared to when I had to set up a DOS BBS, mailer, batch file and FOSSIL, and the generation before who wrote their own BBS software could say the same.
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
    * Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)
  • From BOB ACKLEY@1:123/140 to DAVID DRUMMOND on Wednesday, March 13, 2019 16:08:22

    Once upon a time Fidonet sysops were "computer enthusiasts". Now
    they have
    turned into "point and click"ers.

    The problem I noted when Windows came out was that it allowed people that shouldn't be allowed to be in the same room with a computer to use them -
    sort of
    --- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
    * Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Robert Stinnett on Thursday, March 14, 2019 16:02:15
    Hello Robert,

    Once upon a time Fidonet sysops were "computer enthusiasts". Now they
    have
    turned into "point and click"ers.

    Everyone has to start somewhere. I've been working in the IT industry all my
    life, and have programmed in everything from Assembler to C++ to
    Javascript
    and
    beyond. That doesn't mean that I can just sit down in front of any
    software
    package and be an expert in it within minutes. Especially one that is not documented, or the documentation is hidden/horrendously out of date.

    Many folks I know who are getting back into BBSing are doing it because
    they
    want to tinker again -- homelabbers are popping up everywhere. But they
    all
    need guidance. Someone to help them, not criticize everything they do.
    They
    want and are looking for a community - not some rigid, unchanging, "Well wait
    10 years and MAYBE we'll think about it" hierarchy.

    You are right about the community part.

    --Lee

    --
    Get Her Wet Here

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to BOB ACKLEY on Friday, March 15, 2019 07:49:20
    On 14/03/2019 07:08, BOB ACKLEY -> DAVID DRUMMOND wrote:

    Once upon a time Fidonet sysops were "computer enthusiasts". Now they have
    turned into "point and click"ers.

    The problem I noted when Windows came out was that it allowed people that shouldn't be allowed to be in the same room with a computer to use them - sort of

    I concur but I won't admit that in public.

    Bugger! I just did.

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Joacim Melin on Friday, March 15, 2019 02:15:34
    Hello Joacim,

    Maybe I should start publishing the magazine at fidonews.mine.nu
    or news.fidonet.fi

    I think Fidonews should be published whenever there is some actual
    content to read, then people would actually read it.

    Have you considered submitting an article?

    When I have something close to being interesting to anyone to read I will consider it.

    The web page you created is not interesting?

    --Lee

    --
    Get Her Wet Here

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to BOB ACKLEY on Saturday, March 16, 2019 00:45:54
    Hello Bob,'s

    Once upon a time Fidonet sysops were "computer enthusiasts". Now
    they have
    turned into "point and click"ers.

    The problem I noted when Windows came out was that it allowed people that shouldn't be allowed to be in the same room with a computer to use them - sort of

    Back in the 90's as I was visiting the public library in
    Baton Rouge, in the computer section, there was a huge man
    typing at one of the terminals. Although everyone was
    expected to sign in using their real name, he chose to use
    an alias. Not that it mattered, as everybody recognized
    him. Shaquille O'Neal. Nicest guy in the world. With
    tattoo on arm declaring "The World Is Mine".

    The computer in front of him looked tiny. Hard to imagine
    how a huge man like that could type on such a tiny keyboard,
    much less sit down in a chair that could barely hold his
    weight.

    Shaq is actually a very bright person, not your usual jock.
    Has a PhD. A real one. Nothing fake.

    --Lee

    --
    We Put Big Loads In Tight Places

    --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
    * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)
  • From Joacim Melin@2:201/120 to David Drummond on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 06:36:52
    On 11/03/2019 16:30, Joacim Melin -> Tommi Koivula wrote:

    Maybe I should start publishing the magazine at fidonews.mine.nu
    or news.fidonet.fi

    I think Fidonews should be published whenever there is some actual
    content to read, then people would actually read it.

    Have you considered submitting an article?

    When I have something close to being interesting to anyone to read I will consider it.


    --- NiKom v2.5.0
    * Origin: Delta City (deltacity.se, Vallentuna, Sweden) (2:201/120.0)
  • From Dan Clough@1:123/115 to David Drummond on Tuesday, March 12, 2019 08:18:00
    David Drummond wrote to Dan Clough <=-

    Contrast with Fidonet - "Find a regional coordinator, set up your
    system with a /9999 address, poll them, and wait an indeterminate
    time for instructions..."

    Careful, that's a little too clear and concise. I don't think we
    should tell a n00b to use /9999, they should have to figure that
    out for themselves, like our Grandpas did... :

    Could it be that Grandpa managed to read the Fidonet Policy which documented that procedure?

    Good point. I know P4 documents that, but the point was that the
    instructions could be done much better. Many of the Othernets
    "infopacks" are great examples of this. I believe there are some
    works in progress on trying that for Fidonet... :)



    ... Pros are those who do their jobs well, even when they don't feel like it. === MultiMail/Linux v0.51
    --- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Dan Clough on Wednesday, March 13, 2019 08:06:11
    On 13/03/2019 00:18, Dan Clough -> David Drummond wrote:

    Could it be that Grandpa managed to read the Fidonet Policy which
    documented that procedure?

    Good point. I know P4 documents that, but the point was that the instructions could be done much better. Many of the Othernets
    "infopacks" are great examples of this. I believe there are some
    works in progress on trying that for Fidonet... :)

    There have been "infopacks" published in the past, time and time again. They tend to favour particular software and as that software is "superseded" then the "infopack" becomes obsolete.

    Once upon a time Fidonet sysops were "computer enthusiasts". Now they have turned into "point and click"ers.

    --

    Regards
    David

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
    * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)