yes, really...

So, what happens when you click on e.g. fidonews.eu? What if you choose "Check it out anonymously"? Wouldn't that be your very first choice if you were
new to our network?

Where's the catch-22 there?

It seems like almost all of the remaining fidonet sysops, 95% or so, seem to
be what formerly was defined as point-ops, have forgotten that fidonet was originally a BBS-network:

"This document establishes the policy for sysops who are members of
the FidoNet organization of electronic bulletin board systems."

This is the very first sentence in our policy when scaled all the admin inceptions are off. An "Electronic bulletin board system" was, and of course still is, the same as a BBS. If you don't run a BBS, you are not entitled to be
nodelisted in the BBS-network of fidonet.

Some of us still take this seriously, a vast majority don't give a shit. And
we can see the result, but the majority prefer to put a blind eye without regarding the negative impact it has on our network.

With only all the working BBSs nodelisted, and all the other, glorified point systems connected to those few (50 or so?), it would be a piece of cake to create a true, complete mesh of fidonet nodes.



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 2019 Mar 10 19:46:52, you wrote to me:

yes, really...

So, what happens when you click on e.g. fidonews.eu?

click it where? how can you click on something in an 80x25 ASCII terminal???

What if you choose "Check it out anonymously"? Wouldn't that be your
very first choice if you were new to our network?

nope 'cause it wouldn't be being seen like you are assuming it would be...

Where's the catch-22 there?

completely forget that you know anything at all about fidonet... you don't have
a clue what echomail or netmail is... no idea what a "mailer" or "tosser" are... now try to figure out how to join fidonet...

It seems like almost all of the remaining fidonet sysops, 95% or so,
seem to be what formerly was defined as point-ops, have forgotten that fidonet was originally a BBS-network:

you are ibcluding yourself in that count, right? especially with your "click this" and "click that" statements... there ain't no clicking anything in fidonet, man! hahahahaha...

"This document establishes the policy for sysops who are members of
the FidoNet organization of electronic bulletin board systems."

This is the very first sentence in our policy when scaled all the admin inceptions are off. An "Electronic bulletin board system" was, and of course still is, the same as a BBS. If you don't run a BBS, you are not entitled to be nodelisted in the BBS-network of fidonet.

Some of us still take this seriously,

really? yet you "click this" and "click that"... fidonet doesn't do "clicks" and "links"... fidonet is pure ASCII text... no links, animations, or pretty pictures...

a vast majority don't give a shit. And we can see the result, but the majority prefer to put a blind eye without regarding the negative
impact it has on our network.

hummm...

With only all the working BBSs nodelisted, and all the other,
glorified point systems connected to those few (50 or so?), it would
be a piece of cake to create a true, complete mesh of fidonet nodes.

really??? you take this as an opportunity to wave the fidoweb dick in folks' faces again??? deity, you take the cake!

)\/(ark

Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
... How many roads must a man travel before he admits he is lost.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

mark lewis wrote to Bj”rn Felten <=-

With only all the working BBSs nodelisted, and all the other,
glorified point systems connected to those few (50 or so?), it would
be a piece of cake to create a true, complete mesh of fidonet nodes.

really??? you take this as an opportunity to wave the fidoweb
dick in folks' faces again??? deity, you take the cake!

He really is a piece of work, eh?

I don't even know what to make of his claim of there being only 50
working BBS's in the nodelist. Is he saying that unless you're a *C,
you're not a real BBS?


... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.51
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

completely forget that you know anything at all about fidonet... you
don't have a clue what echomail or netmail is... no idea what a "mailer" or "tosser" are... now try to figure out how to join fidonet...

What person are you imagining here? It surely is nobody from the generation after ours. Someone's 90yo grandmother perhaps? No, we can probably rule her out as a new fidonet node operator...

Never ever underestimate the internet know-how of the new generations!


..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Is he saying that unless you're a *C,
you're not a real BBS?

I guess you do not know how to run a BBS then?

Fidonet is, and has always been a BBS network. No matter how hard some people try to deny it. It's written crystal clear in our policy.




..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 03-10-19 19:46, Bj”rn Felten <=-
spoke to Mark Lewis about Trying to connect to the <=-

So, what happens when you click on e.g. fidonews.eu?
What if you choose "Check it out anonymously"? Wouldn't
that be your very first choice if you were new to our
network?

I opened fidonews.eu in crome and clicked on the anonymous link --- and
nothing happened. I could get a listing of the fidonews issues, but
none of them said anything about how to become a member of fido.

fidonet.io at least gave some info that might be helpful. I only
glanced at it and cannot say how useful it would be for a complete
novice -- but certainly more helpful than fidonews.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 01:11:47, 11 Mar 2019
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

On 2019 Mar 11 05:51:20, you wrote to me:

completely forget that you know anything at all about fidonet... you
don't have a clue what echomail or netmail is... no idea what a
"mailer" or "tosser" are... now try to figure out how to join
fidonet...

What person are you imagining here? It surely is nobody from the generation after ours.

actually, yes... a lot of them don't have the first clue about fidonet... then there's their kids and their kid's kids... yes, i've got a grandchild that is fast approaching the point of having their own children making me a great-grandfather...

Never ever underestimate the internet know-how of the new generations!

i'm not but some are assuming they have more know-how than they do... my youngest remaining child, 30something, has been around me and my computers all their life... they know the term "fidonet" and that it is something about exchanging mail but they don't know anything else about it... BBS? isn't the internet a BBS? yeah, they've actually asked that question...

)\/(ark

Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
... Life is anything that dies when you stomp on it.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

Bj”rn Felten wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Is he saying that unless you're a *C,
you're not a real BBS?

I guess you do not know how to run a BBS then?

Well, I believe I do. I'm the sysop of the system that this post
is originating from, anyway.

Fidonet is, and has always been a BBS network. No matter how
hard some people try to deny it. It's written crystal clear in
our policy.

Sometimes you don't even make sense... I know that (above). Not
sure why you say that, and from what context there was in this
thread (that you snipped), *YOU* are the one denying that it's a
BBS network, and implying that *C's are the only real BBSes.

You really do have a bad habit of snipping out too much of what
you reply to. I'm guessing that's another of your little ways of
making things as clear as mud. Making it appear that you said
something other than what you did. Please stop playing the silly
little games, and try to have an adult conversation. Thanks.



... So easy, a child could do it. Child sold separately.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.51
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

Björn Felten wrote to mark lewis <=-

What person are you imagining here? It surely is nobody from the generation after ours. Someone's 90yo grandmother perhaps? No, we can probably rule her out as a new fidonet node operator...

Synchronet BBS software has instructions on how to connect to DOVEnet, a
QWK network that is home to the support fora (as well as some nice general interest boards)

I see a new sysops get DOVEnet set up first, then want to look beyond it
and see what else is out there. That means getting a mailer set up and
joining other networks.

I think *that* sysop should be our target audience for fido information on
the web.

... What do you think management's real interests are?
--- MultiMail/XT v0.51
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

Dale Shipp wrote to BjöRn Felten <=-

I opened fidonews.eu in crome and clicked on the anonymous link --- and nothing happened. I could get a listing of the fidonews issues, but
none of them said anything about how to become a member of fido.

Same here.

fidonet.io at least gave some info that might be helpful. I only
glanced at it and cannot say how useful it would be for a complete
novice -- but certainly more helpful than fidonews.

I think we need to consider an infopack. Include a nodelist, a text
application with instructions, a file backbone listing, echo listing, and a couple of paragraphs describing what to expect.

Whether or not we could come to an agreement on the content would be a good litmus test for the network.



... How does this work, is there an orientation?
--- MultiMail/XT v0.51
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

Dale Shipp wrote to BjöRn Felten <=-

I opened fidonews.eu in crome and clicked on the anonymous link --- and
nothing happened. I could get a listing of the fidonews issues, but
none of them said anything about how to become a member of fido.

Same here.

fidonet.io at least gave some info that might be helpful. I only
glanced at it and cannot say how useful it would be for a complete
novice -- but certainly more helpful than fidonews.

I think we need to consider an infopack. Include a nodelist, a text application with instructions, a file backbone listing, echo listing,
and a
couple of paragraphs describing what to expect.

Whether or not we could come to an agreement on the content would be
a good
litmus test for the network.

Just do it and send it to me and I'll host it on www.fidonet.io. It's time to get things moving and if some doesn't want to be a part of it then so be it.


--- NiKom v2.5.0
* Origin: Delta City (deltacity.se, Vallentuna, Sweden) (2:201/120.0)

Re: Re: Trying to connect to
By: Joacim Melin to Kurt Weiske on Mon Mar 11 2019 06:44 pm

Just do it and send it to me and I'll host it on www.fidonet.io. It's time to get things moving and if some doesn't want to be a part of it then so be it.

I'll look at my othernet's packs and see what I can come up with.
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

Re: Re: Trying to connect to
By: Kurt Weiske to Dale Shipp on Mon Mar 11 2019 08:58 am

I think we need to consider an infopack. Include a nodelist, a text application with instructions, a file backbone listing, echo listing, and a couple of paragraphs describing what to expect.

An infopack would go a long way to getting things where they need to be. This shouldn't be too hard of a task, and one I would hope wouldn't get stuck in the tarpit of beauracracy.

dmxrob þ BBSing from St. Louis, Missouri since 1988
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
* Origin: Gateway to the West BBS | St. Louis, Missouri (1:290/10)

I think we need to consider an infopack. Include a nodelist, a text application with instructions, a file backbone listing, echo listing, and a couple of paragraphs describing what to expect.

That is a good idea. I could create an infopack for net 153 at least.

Whether or not we could come to an agreement on the content would be a good litmus test for the network.

There was at one time a list of IP nodes that were accepting links for the fidonet echo and file areas. I think that would also be a good idea to have that sort of info available for new (and existing) nodes.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

On 10 Mar 2019, mark lewis said the following...

On 2019 Mar 10 19:46:52, you wrote to me:

yes, really...

So, what happens when you click on e.g. fidonews.eu?

click it where? how can you click on something in an 80x25 ASCII terminal???

What if you choose "Check it out anonymously"? Wouldn't that be your very first choice if you were new to our network?

nope 'cause it wouldn't be being seen like you are assuming it would
be...

Where's the catch-22 there?

completely forget that you know anything at all about fidonet... you
don't have a clue what echomail or netmail is... no idea what a "mailer" or "tosser" are... now try to figure out how to join fidonet...

It seems like almost all of the remaining fidonet sysops, 95% or so, seem to be what formerly was defined as point-ops, have forgotten tha fidonet was originally a BBS-network:

Not the case here as I am the NC for all of New York. Furthermore I do not think this has ever been the case within the Empire_Net.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A41 2018/12/27 (Windows/64)
* Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)

On 11/03/2019 14:14, Dan Clough -> mark lewis wrote:

With only all the working BBSs nodelisted, and all the other,
glorified point systems connected to those few (50 or so?), it would
be a piece of cake to create a true, complete mesh of fidonet nodes.

really??? you take this as an opportunity to wave the fidoweb
dick in folks' faces again??? deity, you take the cake!

He really is a piece of work, eh?

As are we all.

I don't even know what to make of his claim of there being only 50
working BBS's in the nodelist. Is he saying that unless you're a *C, you're not a real BBS?

I think he is suggesting that unless a "system" has users other than the "sysop" then it shouldn't be nodelisted.

Having a *C badge is not required.

There are no other users availing themselves of my "system" - although I do have a *C badge. Should my system only be a point and not a "full nodelisted" node?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)

On 11/03/2019 14:56, 2:203/2 wrote:

Is he saying that unless you're a *C,
you're not a real BBS?

I guess you do not know how to run a BBS then?

Fidonet is, and has always been a BBS network. No matter how hard
some people try to deny it. It's written crystal clear in our policy.

A document that most of us had no say in the composition there-of.

How many of us have actually entered into any contract regarding this Policy?

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)

On 2019 Mar 11 19:09:08, you wrote to me:

completely forget that you know anything at all about fidonet... you
don't have a clue what echomail or netmail is... no idea what a
"mailer" or "tosser" are... now try to figure out how to join
fidonet...

It seems like almost all of the remaining fidonet sysops, 95% or so,
seem to be what formerly was defined as point-ops, have forgotten
that fidonet was originally a BBS-network:

Not the case here as I am the NC for all of New York. Furthermore I do

not

think this has ever been the case within the Empire_Net.

i think you meant to reply to BF instead of me ;)

)\/(ark

Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
... If the funeral procession is at night, do folks drive with the lights off? ---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 2019 Mar 12 12:09:12, you wrote to me:

really??? you take this as an opportunity to wave the fidoweb dick in
folks' faces again??? deity, you take the cake!

I'm surprised that you even stoop to bad language

what bad language??

in your contempt

what contempt??

for the network distribution model that's been working perfectly well
ever since ARPANET. The web.

there was no such thing as "the web" until Tim Berners-Lee created the first web browser...

But I never imagined that you should stay quiet when the mob starts
their attack on the JamNNTPd model, considering that you yourself have been part of the Johan Billing project for many years.

i was part of that project, yes... i've not stayed quiet, either... i have, however, been busy elsewhere...

I guess you don't give a shit,

really? if i didn't i would have said anything...

but I'm really disappointed.

that's a personal problem, i guess...

You've come a long way since we both were involved with the FrontDoor project.

WOWOWOWOWOWOW! hahaha... that's too funny... much too funny... you didn't show up in the FD project's beta area until years after i had been invited to join... that was back when i was also a beta tester for RemoteAccess BBS and FastEcho...

And not in a direction that benefits our network. :(

i don't know what direction you are looking in but it is obviously not in the same direction as myself and many others have been looking and traveling in...

)\/(ark

Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
... I'll have the Golden Shower Shrimp and the Twice-Chewed Beef.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

there was no such thing as "the web" until Tim Berners-Lee created the first web browser...

You may want to read up on how ARPANET worked. It pre-dates the world wide web by decades.



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

On 03-11-19 08:58, Kurt Weiske <=-
spoke to Dale Shipp about Re: Trying to connect to <=-

I think we need to consider an infopack. Include a nodelist, a text application with instructions, a file backbone listing, echo listing,
and a couple of paragraphs describing what to expect.

Whether or not we could come to an agreement on the content would be a good litmus test for the network.

A good time ago when Thom LaCosa was R13C, there was a region 13 web
page that gave a lot of good info such as what you suggest. Don't know
what happened to it, nor when it went away. I'm also sure the R13 was
not the only one with such a page.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 00:06:54, 12 Mar 2019
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

On 03-12-19 10:16, Bj”rn Felten <=-
spoke to Dale Shipp about Trying to connect to news <=-

I opened fidonews.eu in crome and clicked on the anonymous link --- and nothing happened.

That's strange, considering that you are a long time registered
user:
dshipp <password withheld> AIST ABIS "Dale Shipp"

Maybe you've missed that the server moved from
felten.yi.org to eljaco.se *after* you registered many
years ago?

Nope -- I made that change in my newsreader program some time back.

But of course I could have hard-coded e.g. the FIDONEWS echo into
the link, but it never occurred to me, that someone with a
properly installed newsreader wouldn't know how to bring up
the list of available echoes on a server.

What you are missing is that I opened fidonews.eu in Chrome. Chrome is
not a newsreader, it is a HTML program. There was nothing in your
statement that made me think that I should be using a newsreader. My
statement stands -- there are three links at the top of the page
(fidonews.eu which gets redirected to fidonews.felten.se). One says
"check it out anonymously", second says "get your own copy of the server program" and the third says "the fidonews archives". That first link is
really news://eljaco.se and of course Chrome can do nothing with it.

My bad. Note to self: Never underestimate the stupidity
of the average John Doe.

Right back at you. I just did what you said to do.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 13:50:30, 13 Mar 2019
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

there was no such thing as "the web" until Tim Berners-Lee created the first web browser...

You may want to read up on how ARPANET worked. It pre-dates the

world wide

web by decades.

If you've not read Clifford Stoll's excellent book "The Cuckoo's Egg" you
might want to track down a copy
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
* Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)

Re: Re: Trying to connect to
By: Dale Shipp to Kurt Weiske on Tue Mar 12 2019 12:04 am

A good time ago when Thom LaCosa was R13C, there was a region 13 web
page that gave a lot of good info such as what you suggest. Don't know
what happened to it, nor when it went away. I'm also sure the R13 was
not the only one with such a page.

I'm trying to make a page for R10. Do you remember the URL for Thom's page? We could probably find it on the Wayback machine - http://web.archive.org. It's a handy site for finding web sites that have gone away.
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

On 12 Mar 2019, mark lewis said the following...

On 2019 Mar 11 19:09:08, you wrote to me:

completely forget that you know anything at all about fidonet... you
don't have a clue what echomail or netmail is... no idea what a
"mailer" or "tosser" are... now try to figure out how to join
fidonet...

It seems like almost all of the remaining fidonet sysops, 95% or so
seem to be what formerly was defined as point-ops, have forgotten
that fidonet was originally a BBS-network:

Not the case here as I am the NC for all of New York. Furthermore I

not

think this has ever been the case within the Empire_Net.

i think you meant to reply to BF instead of me ;)

True, I did but just wanted to make the point that there is no point systems here within the Empire_Net. I do not think there has ever been. At least not for the years that I have been NC of Net 267.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A41 2018/12/27 (Windows/64)
* Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)

Gregory Deyss : mark lewis wrote:

..I did but just wanted to make the point that there is no point
systems here within the Empire_Net. I do not think there has ever
been. At least not for the years that I have been NC of Net 267.

Hello Gregory!

I see you were represented in fidonet for a while:

1:267/150 Gregory Deyss from Averill Park NY 1995.12.08
1:267/200 Gregory Deyss from East Poestenkill NY 1999.11.05 - 2006.01.06 1:267/0 Gregory Deyss from Poestenkill NY 2000.06.30
1:267/1 Gregory Deyss from Poestenkill NY 2000.07.07 - 2003.09.12

My systems were part of the empire from about 1993 to 2006. In 1996 onward, I had about 10 regular point users. Most of them remained as "lurkers" in the echos. (They were primarily interested in the gated internet email that my system was providing.)

But the "points" were out there!

--- Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228)
* Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

On 03-13-19 17:47, Kurt Weiske <=-
spoke to Dale Shipp about Re: Trying to connect to <=-

A good time ago when Thom LaCosa was R13C, there was a region 13 web
page that gave a lot of good info such as what you suggest. Don't know what happened to it, nor when it went away. I'm also sure the R13 was
not the only one with such a page.

I'm trying to make a page for R10. Do you remember the URL for Thom's page? We could probably find it on the Wayback machine - http://web.archive.org. It's a handy site for finding web sites that
have gone away.

Diging around in my old bookmarks, I found the following URL which might
well be Thom's website. It is no longer active.

http://www.fidonet.us/region13/index.html


I also found the link below which gives some info on fido, etc. http://www.net282.org/

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 23:15:45, 13 Mar 2019
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
* Origin: Owl's Anchor (1:261/1466)

Hello Bj”rn,

there was no such thing as "the web" until Tim Berners-Lee created the
first web browser...

You may want to read up on how ARPANET worked. It pre-dates the world wide web by decades.

As Al Gore once tried to explain ...

--Lee

--
We Make Your Wet Dreams Come True

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello mark,

really??? you take this as an opportunity to wave the fidoweb dick in
folks' faces again??? deity, you take the cake!

I'm surprised that you even stoop to bad language

what bad language??

You wouldn't understand. It's a Swedish thing.

in your contempt

what contempt??

Like I said, you wouldn't understand ...

for the network distribution model that's been working perfectly well
ever since ARPANET. The web.

there was no such thing as "the web" until Tim Berners-Lee created the

first

web browser...

Oh, don't be silly. Everybody knows Al Gore invented the internet.

But I never imagined that you should stay quiet when the mob starts
their attack on the JamNNTPd model, considering that you yourself have
been part of the Johan Billing project for many years.

i was part of that project, yes... i've not stayed quiet, either... i

have,

however, been busy elsewhere...

Well, get busy. I have added the JamNNTPd echo.

I guess you don't give a shit,

really? if i didn't i would have said anything...

Nobody gives a shit. Except those who truly do give a shit.

but I'm really disappointed.

that's a personal problem, i guess...

I wouldn't know. Or want to know.

You've come a long way since we both were involved with the FrontDoor
project.

WOWOWOWOWOWOW! hahaha... that's too funny... much too funny... you didn't show up in the FD project's beta area until years after i had been invited to join... that was back when i was also a beta tester for RemoteAccess

BBS

and FastEcho...

He had other things to do. As do we all.

And not in a direction that benefits our network. :(

i don't know what direction you are looking in but it is obviously not in the same direction as myself and many others have been looking and traveling in...

Sometimes a redirect can do you good.

--Lee

--
Laying Pipe Since '88

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello Bob,

there was no such thing as "the web" until Tim Berners-Lee created

the

first web browser...

You may want to read up on how ARPANET worked. It pre-dates the

world wide

web by decades.

If you've not read Clifford Stoll's excellent book "The Cuckoo's Egg" you might want to track down a copy

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

--Lee

--
Make Sure Your Next Erection Is In Safe Hands

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Dale Shipp wrote to Kurt Weiske <=-

http://www.fidonet.us/region13/index.html

There is a capture from at web.archive.org in there, among others. Nice
page.



... What if I told you you can't hurt the newcomers?
--- MultiMail/XT v0.51
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

On 15/03/2019 01:03, Lee Lofaso -> BOB ACKLEY wrote:

If you've not read Clifford Stoll's excellent book "The Cuckoo's Egg" you
might want to track down a copy

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

The egg.

--

Regards
David

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.8.0
* Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

The egg.

As in the first impregnated cell, of course.

Every modern, educated person, that has withstood the indoctrination from all the self-appointed ombudsmen to God, also known as priests -- remarkably enough never mentioned in either the Bible, the Koran, the Torah or any other of their sacred scriptures -- nowadays realize.

Creationism is dead. Long live evolutionism!

..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Hello David,

Is he saying that unless you're a *C,
you're not a real BBS?

I guess you do not know how to run a BBS then?

Fidonet is, and has always been a BBS network. No matter how hard
some people try to deny it. It's written crystal clear in our policy.

A document that most of us had no say in the composition there-of.

How many of us have actually entered into any contract regarding this Policy?

None. Not a single sysop. In any zone.

It is not valid or enforceable. So what's the point?

In order to be valid, a contract must be signed by both parties.
Those who wrote P4 never signed it.
Nobody from any zone signed it, as no vote was taken.
Therefore, P4 is not a valid or enforceable contract.

Those who wrote the Declaration of Independence signed their names.
No vote was taken, as none was necessary. A copy was then sent to
the King of England, who then gave an edict to chop off their heads.

Those who wrote the US Constitution signed their names. A vote
was then taken by each individual state, one at a time. All 13
states independently voted "yes" - making the US Constitution a
valid and enforceable contract.

Of course, the Zone 1 powers-that-be would have you believe
that the mighty P4 rules us all ...

--Lee

--
We're Great In Bed

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Creationism is dead. Long live evolutionism!

Depends on how you define "creationism". And creationism is about the origins of the universe. Evolution only addresses the evolving of life on earth. So
the two are hardly antonymous.

ÖÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ· ÖÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ· ÖÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ·
*HúUúMúOúNúGúOúUúS* BúBúS nathanael : jenandcal.familyds.org:2323
ÓÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄĽ ÓÄÄÄÄÄÄĽ ÓÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄĽ

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: *HUMONGOUS* BBS (3:712/886)

On 2019 Mar 13 04:55:18, you wrote to me:

there was no such thing as "the web" until Tim Berners-Lee created the
first web browser...

You may want to read up on how ARPANET worked. It pre-dates the world
wide web by decades.

i know exactly how ARPANET came to be... the fact still remains that "the web" didn't exist until TBL created the web browser...

)\/(ark

Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
... To be, or not to be, those are the parameters.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 14 Mar 2019, August Abolins said the following...

Gregory Deyss : mark lewis wrote:

..I did but just wanted to make the point that there is no point
systems here within the Empire_Net. I do not think there has ever
been. At least not for the years that I have been NC of Net 267.

Hello Gregory!

I see you were represented in fidonet for a while:

Yes and I'm still here. It has been 24 years and counting.

1:267/150 Gregory Deyss from Averill Park NY 1995.12.08
1:267/200 Gregory Deyss from East Poestenkill NY 1999.11.05 - 2006.01.06 1:267/0 Gregory Deyssfrom Poestenkill NY 2000.06.30
1:267/1 Gregory Deyss from Poestenkill NY 2000.07.07 - 2003.09.12

Most of those nodes are in use today. Accept for 1:267/200 of which was the node of the former hub, after a while I dropped the the use of that node and created 1:267/800 which is the new mail hub. 1:267/1 is use by a another individual. 1:267/150 has remained in place for the past 24 years.

Did you ever hear the story of how I acquired the NC 'hat' here in NY?
It's quite the tale, that speaks of conquest and victory.

Since I have been at the helm as NC there have not been any point systems!

Over the past year or so there have been several new nodes within the Empire_Net, each of them are provided their own node, there are no points
that exist here in that are under the Empire_Net.

My systems were part of the empire from about 1993 to 2006. In 1996
onward, I had about 10 regular point users. Most of them remained as "lurkers" in the echos. (They were primarily interested in the gated internet email that my system was providing.)
AA> But the "points" were out there!

I think it those days it might of been referred to as the Adirondack_Net.
I have nodes close to Buffalo to New York City and in the immediate Capital Region of which is known as the (Albany area)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A41 2018/12/27 (Windows/64)
* Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)

Gregory Deyss : August Abolins wrote:

My systems were part of the empire from about 1993 to 2006. In 1996 onward, I had about 10 regular point users. Most of them remained as "lurkers" in the echos. (They were primarily interested in the gated internet email that my system was providing.)
AA> But the "points" were out there!

I think it those days it might of been referred to as the Adirondack_Net.

My email<->internet gateway was configured with an othernet. MTLnet. I made long distance calls to Montreal.

--- Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228)
* Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

On 19 Mar 2019, August Abolins said the following...

Gregory Deyss : August Abolins wrote:

My systems were part of the empire from about 1993 to 2006. In 1996

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I do not recall.

I think it those days it might of been referred to as the Adirondack_Net

My email<->internet gateway was configured with an othernet. MTLnet. I made long distance calls to Montreal.

So were you also in Fidonet in those days as well? Your name does not look at all familiar to me, as I member those days of just starting out in fidonet.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A41 2018/12/27 (Windows/64)
* Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)

On 2019 Mar 21 21:07:34, you wrote to August Abolins:

On 19 Mar 2019, August Abolins said the following...

My systems were part of the empire from about 1993 to 2006. In

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I do not recall.

FWIW: http://nodehist.fidonet.org.ua/?name=August+Abolins

the above is via the available nodelists on that site... they have many in their library...

)\/(ark

Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
... Few great men could get past the Personnel Department.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 22 Mar 2019, mark lewis said the following...

On 2019 Mar 21 21:07:34, you wrote to August Abolins:

On 19 Mar 2019, August Abolins said the following...

My systems were part of the empire from about 1993 to 2006. In

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I do not recall.

FWIW: http://nodehist.fidonet.org.ua/?name=August+Abolins

Worked like a charm
it confirms what I have already said

1:167/148 August Abolins from St Laurent QC 1993.04.30 - 1996.11.22 1:253/60 August Abolins from Bancroft ON 1996.02.16 - 1997.11.14 1:253/114 August Abolins from Bancroft ON 1996.02.16 - 1996.03.08 1:229/390 August Abolins from Bancroft ON 1997.10.10 - 2006.04.07 1:163/144 August Abolins from Bancroft ON 1997.11.14 - 2000.08.25

no where do see August Abolins in the Empire_Net or in New York State which
is Net 267.

)\/(ark

Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
... Few great men could get past the Personnel Department.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A41 2018/12/27 (Windows/64)
* Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)

Gregory Deyss : mark lewis wrote:

FWIW: http://nodehist.fidonet.org.ua/?name=August+Abolins

Worked like a charm
it confirms what I have already said
no where do see August Abolins in the Empire_Net or in New York State which is Net 267.

Oh.. my bad. I thought you were originally saying "empire" as a substitute when referring to FidoNet.

.../|ug

--- Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228)
* Origin: - nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/360)

On 23 Mar 2019, August Abolins said the following...

Gregory Deyss : mark lewis wrote:

FWIW: http://nodehist.fidonet.org.ua/?name=August+Abolins

Worked like a charm
it confirms what I have already said
no where do see August Abolins in the Empire_Net or in New York State wh is Net 267.

Oh.. my bad. I thought you were originally saying "empire" as a substitute when referring to FidoNet.

No worries, it's all good :)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A41 2018/12/27 (Windows/64)
* Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)

NOTE: i've read august's post, now after writing the below but i'm going to leave it in place... i now know there was a terminology misunderstanding re: the term "empire"... in any case, some of the following may still be interesting to you and/or others...


On 2019 Mar 22 19:31:54, you wrote to me:

On 22 Mar 2019, mark lewis said the following...

My systems were part of the empire from about 1993 to 2006. In

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I do not recall.

FWIW: http://nodehist.fidonet.org.ua/?name=August+Abolins

Worked like a charm
it confirms what I have already said

actually it doesn't... one needs the old nodelists from that time to see what areas were covered... this listing only shows the address, name, location and dates...

no where do see August Abolins in the Empire_Net or in New York State

which

is Net 267.

it is n267 now but it may not have been back then... there was some churn at times as new nets were created when existing nets got very large and were covering a lot more territory... new nets were created to break the area and numbers of systems into more managable pieces...

for example, in 1993's nodelist.274, the new jersey net, net107, included some new york systems... net260 was known as the empire state net and included some pennsylvania systems... net267 at that time was known as the adirondack net... step back to 1988 and net267 didn't even exist...

there were at least three years where august was listed in two different nets... i won't even point out the operator that was listed in net120, detroit michigan, with two systems... one of which was located in california but listed
in net120 :) and let's not forget about region 12 which was only hawaii at one
point :)

i'm not saying that you or august are wrong... only that further study is needed if one really wants to prove or dispute...

)\/(ark

Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
... We accept all major credit cards. Maria Carey GIFs are OK, too.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 2019 Mar 23 01:39:36, you wrote to Gregory Deyss:

FWIW: http://nodehist.fidonet.org.ua/?name=August+Abolins

Worked like a charm it confirms what I have already said no where do
see August Abolins in the Empire_Net or in New York State which is Net
267.

Oh.. my bad. I thought you were originally saying "empire" as a

substitute

when referring to FidoNet.

that does make a bit of a difference :)

maybe too much star wars? :lol:

)\/(ark

Always Mount a Scratch Monkey
Do you manage your own servers? If you are not running an IDS/IPS yer doin' it wrong...
... Maybe they are playing it straight and actually think this is clever.
---
* Origin: (1:3634/12.73)

On 23 Mar 2019, mark lewis said the following...

NOTE: i've read august's post, now after writing the below but i'm going to leave it in place... i now know there was a terminology misunderstanding re: the term "empire"... in any case, some of the following may still be interesting to you and/or others...

On 2019 Mar 22 19:31:54, you wrote to me:

On 22 Mar 2019, mark lewis said the following...

My systems were part of the empire from about 1993 to 2006. In

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I do not recall.

FWIW: http://nodehist.fidonet.org.ua/?name=August+Abolins

Worked like a charm
it confirms what I have already said

actually it doesn't... one needs the old nodelists from that time to see what areas were covered... this listing only shows the address, name, location and dates...

no where do see August Abolins in the Empire_Net or in New York State

which

is Net 267.

it is n267 now but it may not have been back then... there was some
churn at times as new nets were created when existing nets got very
large and were covering a lot more territory... new nets were created to break the area and numbers of systems into more managable pieces...

for example, in 1993's nodelist.274, the new jersey net, net107,
included some new york systems... net260 was known as the empire state
net and included some pennsylvania systems... net267 at that time was known as the adirondack net... step back to 1988 and net267 didn't even exist...

there were at least three years where august was listed in two different nets... i won't even point out the operator that was listed in net120, detroit michigan, with two systems... one of which was located in california but listed in net120 :) and let's not forget about region 12 which was only hawaii at one point :)

i'm not saying that you or august are wrong... only that further study is needed if one really wants to prove or dispute...

Not necessary for several reasons.
1. He said my bad, he thought I was talking about something else.
2. He was never in the empire_net or the adirondack_net.
3. There does not always need to dispute, or a powerplay, ego's are already larger then life -sometimes behind the keyboard and especially in here.

You have already seen how I let it go and how I did not dwell.
There really is no need.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A41 2018/12/27 (Windows/64)
* Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)

I opened fidonews.eu in crome and clicked on the anonymous link --- and nothing happened.

That's strange, considering that you are a long time registered user:

dshipp <password withheld> AIST ABIS "Dale Shipp"

Maybe you've missed that the server moved from felten.yi.org to eljaco.se *after* you registered many years ago?

But of course I could have hard-coded e.g. the FIDONEWS echo into the link, but it never occurred to me, that someone with a properly installed newsreader wouldn't know how to bring up the list of available echoes on a server.

My bad. Note to self: Never underestimate the stupidity of the average John Doe.


..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

really??? you take this as an opportunity to wave the fidoweb dick in folks' faces again??? deity, you take the cake!

I'm surprised that you even stoop to bad language in your contempt for the network distribution model that's been working perfectly well ever since ARPANET. The web.

But I never imagined that you should stay quiet when the mob starts their attack on the JamNNTPd model, considering that you yourself have been part of the Johan Billing project for many years.

I guess you don't give a shit, but I'm really disappointed. You've come a long way since we both were involved with the FrontDoor project. And not in a direction that benefits our network. :(



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

David Drummond wrote to Dan Clough <=-

With only all the working BBSs nodelisted, and all the other,
glorified point systems connected to those few (50 or so?), it would
be a piece of cake to create a true, complete mesh of fidonet nodes.

I don't even know what to make of his claim of there being only 50
working BBS's in the nodelist. Is he saying that unless you're a *C, you're not a real BBS?

I think he is suggesting that unless a "system" has users other
than the "sysop" then it shouldn't be nodelisted.

Ahhh, that could be it. Pretty hard to put into practice though,
and the number of users is a moving target.

Having a *C badge is not required.

There are no other users availing themselves of my "system" -
although I do have a *C badge. Should my system only be a point
and not a "full nodelisted" node?

Of course not. I don't have many users either, but that's the way
of the world nowadays.



... If it walks out of your refrigerator, let it go.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.51
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

Re: Trying to connect to news://eljaco.se
By: Bj”rn Felten to Dale Shipp on Tue Mar 12 2019 10:16 am

My bad. Note to self: Never underestimate the stupidity of the average John Doe.

Note to self: Never underestimate what a jackass know-it-all some people think they are.
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
* Origin: Gateway to the West BBS | St. Louis, Missouri (1:290/10)

Note to self: Never underestimate what a jackass know-it-all some
people think they are.

And you ran a BBS back then, when there still was a BBS sysop requisite for getting a nodelisting, sir? Just so that we know what fidonet experience you actually have -- as opposed to those of us with more than 30 years of ditto.




..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

And you ran a BBS back then, when there still was a BBS sysop requisite for getting a nodelisting, sir?

Is that important in any way at all?

Just so that we know what fidonet experience you actually have -- as opposed to those of us with more than 30 years of ditto.

Those sysops with many years of experience would be an asset to new sysops if they would share their experience in a meaningful way, rather than a mean way.

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-4
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)

Those sysops with many years of experience would be an asset to new
sysops if they would share their experience in a meaningful way, rather than a mean way.

Amen to that.

During all my three decades as *C I've managed to assist many new BBS operators into being connected to the fidonet BBS network.

So I cannot other than agree with you Alan.

Unfortunately only a few nodelisted systems are operated by real BBS sysops,
so unless you are really fortunate and happen to get in contact with a true BBS sysop, all you can hope for is help to get a one-man nodelisting. Previously known as a point system.



..

--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16) Gecko/20101125
* Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Bj”rn Felten wrote to Alan Ianson <=-

Those sysops with many years of experience would be an asset to new
sysops if they would share their experience in a meaningful way, rather than a mean way.

Amen to that.

Indeed.

Unfortunately only a few nodelisted systems are operated by
real BBS sysops, so unless you are really fortunate and happen to
get in contact with a true BBS sysop, all you can hope for is
help to get a one-man nodelisting. Previously known as a point
system.

You keep saying garbage like this. Would you be so kind as to
define what a "real BBS sysop" is?

For example, if you think I am not one, feel free to register as a
new user on my "real BBS", shown in the origin line below.

Seriously, I'm sure many of us would like to know how *YOU*
differentiate between "real sysops" and posers. Thanks!



... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.51
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)