• Fidonet => region free

    From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Tony Langdon on Wednesday, March 20, 2019 20:17:04
    While Fidonet doesn't _need_ multiple zones, we have them, and mail is flowing, so "fixing" this is low on the priority list.

    What we don't need is regions (except for the archaic nodelist format). Nowadays the RINs are obsolete, so they are no longer needed.

    The original idea was that each zone should have ten regions e.g. 10-19 in zone 1, 20-29 in zone 2 and so on. Each zone should have a hundred nets e.g. 100-1099 in region 10, 110-1199 in region 1:11 and so on.

    But it didn't take long before net 1:202 was created. The net where I first got my nodenumber was 2:202. By then I often got netmail addressed to my node intended for the duplicate 1:202 node.

    Removing all regions save for a single place-holder for our nodelist would be a big step forward. Today's RCs are nothing but nodelist clerks not even needed, our ZCs can easily handle net segments.

    But we (yes, that includes me, RC20) still have an unreasonable power to influence not only important elections, but, even worse, such things as veto any changes to our policy documents.


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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, March 20, 2019 20:32:29
    Bjrn Felten -> Tony Langdon skrev 2019-03-20 20:17:
    Today's RCs are nothing but nodelist clerks not even needed, our ZCs can easily handle net segments.

    OK, I didn't think this through properly. In some zones that would probably a way to hard a task. So maybe keep the RC job as netsegment collector and processor but deprive us of the Mickey Mouse hats.



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  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, March 20, 2019 12:43:41
    Re: Fidonet => region free
    By: Bjrn Felten to Tony Langdon on Wed Mar 20 2019 08:17 pm

    Removing all regions save for a single place-holder for our nodelist would be a big step forward. Today's RCs are nothing but nodelist clerks not even needed, our ZCs can easily handle net segments.

    That's all RCs are supposed to be.
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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Kurt Weiske on Wednesday, March 20, 2019 21:12:27
    That's all RCs are supposed to be.

    If you read P4 you'll see that we are given far more than that. And we are not even supposed to route netmail:

    "A Regional Coordinator does not perform message-forwarding
    services for any nodes in the region."

    We are the only ones that can vote in any FTSC election.

    We are the only ones that can vote for a policy change.

    We are the only ones that select our ZC -- who in turn selects the RCs (kinda a Catch 22 moment, rather undemocratic if you ask me).

    And the list goes on. Even the ZCs have less power than we...



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  • From Alan Ianson@1:153/757 to Bj÷rn Felten on Wednesday, March 20, 2019 13:09:32
    While Fidonet doesn't _need_ multiple zones, we have them, and mail is
    flowing, so "fixing" this is low on the priority list.

    What we don't need is regions (except for the archaic nodelist format). Nowadays the RINs are obsolete, so they are no longer needed.

    I suppose it could be, but I don't think removing zones or regions would help keeping Fidonet going.

    Removing all regions save for a single place-holder for our nodelist would
    be a big step forward. Today's RCs are nothing but nodelist clerks not even needed, our ZCs can easily handle net segments.

    Yes, they could, but the ZC getting good segments from RCs who in turn get good
    segments from NCs makes their jobs easier and their are more eyes on it.

    But we (yes, that includes me, RC20) still have an unreasonable power to influence not only important elections, but, even worse, such things as veto any changes to our policy documents.

    Yes, the real power in Fidonet (according to policy) is in the hands of the RCs. It's important for the smooth operation of Fidonet that we have all the NC/RC/ZC positions filled with people who understand that and are willing to work together for the common good of Fidonet.

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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Alan Ianson on Wednesday, March 20, 2019 21:45:09
    Yes, they could, but the ZC getting good segments from RCs who in turn
    get good segments from NCs makes their jobs easier and their are more
    eyes on it.

    As you may have seen in my retraction comment later, I agree.

    It's important for the smooth operation of Fidonet that we have
    all the NC/RC/ZC positions filled with people who understand that and
    are willing to work together for the common good of Fidonet.

    Yes, I once again agree. And here is the big problem when maintaining the glue that keeps Fidonet together -- the nodelist -- we do not have that.

    It's the ZCs that ignores RCs that does not perform properly, and subsequently their NCs that does not perform properly, that is the problem that
    we have struggled with for decades now.



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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Björn Felten on Wednesday, March 20, 2019 22:29:31
    It's the ZCs that ignores RCs that does not perform properly ...

    Multiple ZCs malfuntioning? ??

    Please be very specific with what you are saying here ... Nick Andre and Scott Little are excellent ZCs and I can give you a couple of situations from personal experience where beggars can't be chosers, meaning you are forced to work with the one single individual who is available as an RC, whether or not he's competent.

    Nick has the same issue in his zone.

    So which ZCs (plural, as in your claim) are malfuntioning and how are they ignoring their RCs? (Use extra sheets if you need more paper)

    \%/@rd

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  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Björn Felten on Thursday, March 21, 2019 07:39:00
    On 03-20-19 20:17, Bjrn Felten wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    While Fidonet doesn't _need_ multiple zones, we have them, and mail is flowing, so "fixing" this is low on the priority list.

    What we don't need is regions (except for the archaic nodelist
    format). Nowadays the RINs are obsolete, so they are no longer needed.

    That makes sense, and only those who peruse the nodelist would even know they existed. I doubt there's an othernet that uses more than 1 region. In fact, I only know of one othernet that uses more than one net (FSXnet).

    The original idea was that each zone should have ten regions e.g.
    10-19 in zone 1, 20-29 in zone 2 and so on. Each zone should have a hundred nets e.g. 100-1099 in region 10, 110-1199 in region 1:11 and so on.

    I see. Locking down structure like that is always fraught. ;)

    But it didn't take long before net 1:202 was created. The net where
    I first got my nodenumber was 2:202. By then I often got netmail
    addressed to my node intended for the duplicate 1:202 node.

    Removing all regions save for a single place-holder for our nodelist would be a big step forward. Today's RCs are nothing but nodelist
    clerks not even needed, our ZCs can easily handle net segments.

    Yep, that makes sense - there is a logic to cutting out that middle level in today's smaller Fidonet. It would certainly streamline things.

    But we (yes, that includes me, RC20) still have an unreasonable
    power to influence not only important elections, but, even worse, such things as veto any changes to our policy documents.

    Understood. And removing that political aspect through removing regions is likely to benefit as well.

    Overall this does make sense. Keep the zones - there's no real problem with keeping them (if it sin't broke...). Keep nets, nets are an important functional component, and NCs have an important role to play, managing their nodes and maintaining their part of the nodelist. Remove regions, as a now unnecessary bureaucratic layer that's redundant. And the other nice thing is no one should have to renumber their node. :)


    ... What do you think management's real interests are?
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  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Björn Felten on Thursday, March 21, 2019 08:09:00
    On 03-20-19 20:32, Bjrn Felten wrote to Bjrn Felten <=-

    Bjrn Felten -> Tony Langdon skrev 2019-03-20 20:17:
    Today's RCs are nothing but nodelist clerks not even needed, our ZCs can easily handle net segments.

    OK, I didn't think this through properly. In some zones that would probably a way to hard a task. So maybe keep the RC job as netsegment collector and processor but deprive us of the Mickey Mouse hats.

    Or is there any way to "thin the herd" and merge regions to spread the load, while reducing the number of hat wearers?


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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Wednesday, March 20, 2019 22:55:12
    So which ZCs (plural, as in your claim) are malfuntioning

    I'm talking not about the present (that from my horizon looks very bright) but from a historical POV.

    Surely you will not claim that all ZCs since I joined Fidonet in 1988 have been performing properly?



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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Tony Langdon on Wednesday, March 20, 2019 23:08:02
    Or is there any way to "thin the herd" and merge regions to spread the load,

    Oh yes, no problem at all.

    In zone 2 we've managed several such mergers. One such was the merger of R20, R21, R22 and R23 into R20. The merger went without any problems (AFAIK). All it takes is the cooperation with the RCs and their ZC. And that's only the latest here.

    And now over to zone 1, and how they have managed to reduce the number of regions from ten (with 25,000 nodes 20 years ago) to ten with a couple of hundreds now. 8-)

    Yeah, I know, those Mickey Mouse hats *do* sit nicely...


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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Moderator on Wednesday, March 20, 2019 23:19:06
    Dear moderator,

    And now over to zone 1, and how they have managed to reduce the number
    of regions from ten (with 25,000 nodes 20 years ago) to ten with a couple of hundreds now. 8-)

    Yeah, I know, those Mickey Mouse hats *do* sit nicely...

    Could you please talk to the guy?

    The Zone Warz are over ...

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR41
    * Origin: Ceci n'est pas un courriel (2:292/854)
  • From David Drummond@3:640/305 to Ward Dossche on Thursday, March 21, 2019 09:36:59
    On 20/03/2019 23:19, Ward Dossche -> Moderator wrote:

    Yeah, I know, those Mickey Mouse hats *do* sit nicely...

    Could you please talk to the guy?

    The Zone Warz are over ...

    Not if we can get it started again!

    --

    Regards
    David

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  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Björn Felten on Thursday, March 21, 2019 11:34:00
    On 03-20-19 23:08, Bjrn Felten wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    Or is there any way to "thin the herd" and merge regions to spread the load,

    Oh yes, no problem at all.

    In zone 2 we've managed several such mergers. One such was the
    merger of R20, R21, R22 and R23 into R20. The merger went without any problems (AFAIK). All it takes is the cooperation with the RCs and
    their ZC. And that's only the latest here.

    And now over to zone 1, and how they have managed to reduce the
    number of regions from ten (with 25,000 nodes 20 years ago) to ten with
    a couple of hundreds now. 8-)

    So, a "doable" option, with the right cooperation . :)

    Yeah, I know, those Mickey Mouse hats *do* sit nicely...

    ;-)


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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Ward Dossche on Thursday, March 21, 2019 06:00:55
    The Zone Warz are over ...

    As I've already said, the future looks bright -- compared to the past.



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  • From Björn Felten@2:203/2 to Tony Langdon on Thursday, March 21, 2019 06:02:41
    So, a "doable" option, with the right cooperation . :)

    Absolutely. The nodes need not even change a thing in their set-up. It's all
    made between RCs and NCs.



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  • From Dale Shipp@1:261/1466 to BjöRn Felten on Thursday, March 21, 2019 01:45:02
    On 03-20-19 21:12, Bjrn Felten <=-
    spoke to Kurt Weiske about Fidonet => region free <=-

    If you read P4 you'll see that we are given far more
    than that. And we are not even supposed to route netmail:

    We are the only ones that can vote for a policy change.

    Not so -- The RCs are the only ones who can put a proposed policy change
    on the table for referendum. It is then voted on by all *Cs.

    Dale Shipp
    fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
    (1:261/1466)


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  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Björn Felten on Thursday, March 21, 2019 07:42:35
    The Zone Warz are over ...

    As I've already said, the future looks bright -- compared to the past.

    I think so too ... despite what some claim.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR41
    * Origin: Ceci n'est pas un courriel (2:292/854)
  • From Ward Dossche@2:292/854 to Dale Shipp on Thursday, March 21, 2019 08:51:30
    We are the only ones that can vote for a policy change.

    Not so -- The RCs are the only ones who can put a proposed policy change
    on the table for referendum. It is then voted on by all *Cs.

    Sorta, but it's a moot point as there is no IC.

    \%/@rd

    --- D'Bridge 3.99 SR41
    * Origin: Ceci n'est pas un courriel (2:292/854)
  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Björn Felten on Thursday, March 21, 2019 19:10:00
    On 03-21-19 06:02, Bjrn Felten wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    So, a "doable" option, with the right cooperation . :)

    Absolutely. The nodes need not even change a thing in their set-up. It's all made between RCs and NCs.

    One to keep in mind.


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  • From Kurt Weiske@1:218/700 to Tony Langdon on Thursday, March 21, 2019 09:40:00
    Tony Langdon wrote to Bjrn Felten <=-

    Or is there any way to "thin the herd" and merge regions to spread the load, while reducing the number of hat wearers?

    I'm willing to entertain cash offers for Region 10. The bidding will start
    at 50 Quatloos.



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  • From Tony Langdon@3:633/410 to Kurt Weiske on Friday, March 22, 2019 07:50:00
    On 03-21-19 09:40, Kurt Weiske wrote to Tony Langdon <=-

    I'm willing to entertain cash offers for Region 10. The bidding will
    start at 50 Quatloos.

    Can't even offer a brass razoo. :P


    ... DON'T EAT CABBAGE

    Too late...

    *fart*

    :P


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  • From Lee Lofaso@2:203/2 to Björn Felten on Sunday, March 24, 2019 00:34:56
    Hello Bjrn,

    So, a "doable" option, with the right cooperation . :)

    Absolutely. The nodes need not even change a thing in their set-up. It's
    all
    made between RCs and NCs.

    Taking out docs.
    Grabbing magnifying glass.
    Checking it out.
    Yep.
    It all adds up.
    Taking out deadwood.
    Nothing left but RCs and NCs.
    Much clearer now.
    No more magnifying glass needed.

    --Lee

    --
    Change Is Cumming

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