• checking..

    From Sysop@2:221/1.59 to All on Saturday, February 01, 2020 18:56:44
    How does this look?

    --- ---Tear here --- ---
    * Origin: (2:221/1.59)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Sysop on Sunday, February 02, 2020 00:58:56
    Hi Sysop!

    01 Feb 2020 18:56, from Sysop -> All:

    @MSGID: 2:221/1.59 153a2d58
    How does this look?

    SEEN-BY: 103/705 154/10 203/0 221/1 6 360 229/426 240/1120 5832
    280/464
    SEEN-BY: 280/5003 5555 288/100 310/31 396/45 423/81 120 712/848 770/1 SEEN-BY: 2452/250
    @PATH: 221/1 280/464

    CU, Ricsi

    ... If you left me without a reason, don't come back with an excuse.
    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: Petting: A study of anatomy in braille... (2:310/31)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Sysop on Sunday, February 02, 2020 02:01:27
    Hi Sysop,

    On 2020-02-01 18:56:44, I wrote to All:

    @MSGID: 2:221/1.59 153a2d58
    How does this look?

    Everybody is 'Sysop' on their own system, so everybody's got a personal message
    now... ;)

    --- ---Tear here --- ---
    * Origin: (2:221/1.59)
    SEEN-BY: 103/705 154/10 203/0 221/1 6 360 229/426 240/1120 5832 280/464 SEEN-BY: 280/5003 5555 288/100 310/31 396/45 423/81 120 712/848 770/1 SEEN-BY: 2452/250
    @PATH: 221/1 280/464

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From Sysop@2:221/1.59 to All on Saturday, February 01, 2020 22:09:54
    How does this look?

    --- ---Tear here--- ---
    * Origin: (2:221/1.59)
  • From Sysop@2:221/1.59 to Wilfred van Velzen on Saturday, February 01, 2020 22:21:31


    On 2020-02-01 18:56:44, I wrote to All:
    ^^^

    LOL!


    @MSGID: 2:221/1.59 153a2d58
    How does this look?

    Everybody is 'Sysop' on their own system, so everybody's got a personal message now... ;)


    Ooops. That was an unintended consequence. But interesting!

    More tweaking required, I guess.

    --- ---Tear here--- ---
    * Origin: (2:221/1.59)
  • From Sysop@2:221/1.59 to All on Saturday, February 01, 2020 22:09:54
    How does this look?

    --- ---Tear here--- ---
    * Origin: (2:221/1.59)
  • From Alan Ianson@1:153/757 to Sysop on Sunday, February 02, 2020 00:10:16
    Hello Sysop,

    How does this look?

    SEEN-BY: 153/757 154/10 203/0 221/1 6 360 240/1120 280/464 5003 5555 335/364
    SEEN-BY: 423/81 4500/1 5020/1042
    @PATH: 221/1 6

    That's what I see here..

    Ttyl :-),
    Al

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/0.1 to Sysop on Sunday, February 02, 2020 11:21:44
    Hi Sysop.

    01 Feb 20 18:56:44, you wrote to All:

    @MSGID: 2:221/1.59 153a2d58
    How does this look?

    --- ---Tear here --- ---

    No. ^ One space missing.

    * Origin: (2:221/1.59)
    SEEN-BY: 203/0 221/1 6 360 240/1120 280/464 5003 5555 423/81
    @PATH: 221/1

    'Tommi

    ---
    * Origin: Point One, Le Gros-Theil, France (2:221/0.1)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/0.1 to Sysop on Sunday, February 02, 2020 11:24:32
    Hi Sysop.

    01 Feb 20 22:09:54, you wrote to All:

    How does this look?

    No kludges at all!

    --- ---Tear here--- ---

    ;)

    * Origin: (2:221/1.59)
    SEEN-BY: 203/0 221/1 6 360 240/1120 280/464 5003 5555 423/81
    @PATH: 221/1

    'Tommi

    ---
    * Origin: Point One, Le Gros-Theil, France (2:221/0.1)
  • From Wilfred van Velzen@2:280/464 to Sysop on Sunday, February 02, 2020 12:40:30
    Hi Sysop,

    On 2020-02-01 22:09:54, I wrote to All:

    How does this look?

    Bad. No kludge lines at all...

    --- ---Tear here--- ---
    * Origin: (2:221/1.59)
    SEEN-BY: 103/705 154/10 203/0 221/1 6 360 229/426 240/1120 5832 280/464 SEEN-BY: 280/5003 5555 288/100 310/31 396/45 423/81 120 712/848 770/1 SEEN-BY: 2452/250
    @PATH: 221/1 280/464

    Bye, Wilfred.

    --- FMail-lnx64 2.1.0.18-B20170815
    * Origin: FMail development HQ (2:280/464)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Sysop on Sunday, February 02, 2020 08:30:19
    Re: checking..
    By: Sysop to All on Sat Feb 01 2020 18:56:44


    How does this look?

    it looks like you need to fix your name... using "sysop" is just ugh in distributed areas... especially since any replies will trigger for all sysops in the area...

    Sender Sysop
    To All
    Subject checking..
    X-FTN-AREA FIDOTEST
    X-FTN-MSGID 2:221/1.59 153a2d58
    X-FTN-SEEN-BY 203/0 221/1 6 360 240/1120 280/464 5003 5555 320/119 219 423/81
    X-FTN-SEEN-BY 640/1138 1321 1384 712/848 3634/12
    X-FTN-PATH 221/1 640/1384


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.59 to mark lewis on Sunday, February 02, 2020 16:53:23
    it looks like you need to fix your name... using "sysop" is just ugh in distributed areas... especially since any replies will trigger for all sysops in the area...



    Better? :)

    --- ---Tear here--- ---
    * Origin: Mans Mazais Eiropas D'Bridge Punkts (2:221/1.59)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.59 to Tommi Koivula on Sunday, February 02, 2020 17:00:30
    Hi Sysop.

    01 Feb 20 22:09:54, you wrote to All:

    TK >Sy> How does this look?

    No kludges at all!

    I think your system is putting in the MSGID, and there should be an AREA.
    Is there no CHARS kludge atleast?


    --- ---Tear here--- ---
    ;)

    Ja.. just thinking a little outside the box!

    ..A

    --- ---Tear here--- ---
    * Origin: Mans Mazais Eiropas D'Bridge Punkts (2:221/1.59)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.59 to Wilfred van Velzen on Sunday, February 02, 2020 17:03:27
    Hi Sysop,

    On 2020-02-01 22:09:54, I wrote to All:

    How does this look?

    Bad. No kludge lines at all...


    Hmmm.. :(

    And the quoting system of this thing is not following the "rules". :(


    ..A

    --- ---Tear here--- ---
    * Origin: Mans Mazais Eiropas D'Bridge Punkts (2:221/1.59)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to August Abolins on Sunday, February 02, 2020 17:43:57
    Re: Re: checking..
    By: August Abolins to mark lewis on Sun Feb 02 2020 16:53:23


    it looks like you need to fix your name... using "sysop" is just
    ugh in distributed areas... especially since any replies will
    trigger for all sysops in the area...

    Better? :)

    :)


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to August Abolins on Sunday, February 02, 2020 17:45:40
    Re: Re: checking..
    By: August Abolins to Wilfred van Velzen on Sun Feb 02 2020 17:03:27


    How does this look?

    Bad. No kludge lines at all...


    Hmmm.. :(

    And the quoting system of this thing is not following the "rules". :(

    not sure what you're saying... the control lines look fine to me...

    Sender August Abolins
    To Wilfred van Velzen
    Subject Re: checking..
    X-FTN-AREA FIDOTEST
    X-FTN-MSGID 2:221/1.59 14051d13
    X-FTN-REPLY 2:280/464 5e36b545
    X-FTN-SEEN-BY 203/0 221/1 6 360 240/1120 280/464 5003 5555 320/119 219 423/81
    X-FTN-SEEN-BY 640/1138 1321 1384 712/848 3634/12
    X-FTN-PATH 221/1 640/1384



    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.59 to Mark Lewis on Sunday, February 02, 2020 20:10:50
    Re: Re: checking..
    By: August Abolins to Wilfred van Velzen on Sun Feb 02 2020 17:03:27


    How does this look?

    Bad. No kludge lines at all...


    Hmmm.. :(

    And the quoting system of this thing is not following the "rules".
    :(

    not sure what you're saying... the control lines look fine to me...


    It's the quoting lines using the >'s that not what I expected. It's putting your initials on EVERY line.


    BTW, did you manually adjust *your* quoting? Where did the "AB>" and "AN>" above come from?


    The quoting suggestions in FSC-0032 are very good.

    --- ---Tear here--- ---
    * Origin: Mans Mazais Eiropas D'Bridge Punkts (2:221/1.59)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to August Abolins on Sunday, February 02, 2020 21:02:32
    Re: Re: checking..
    By: August Abolins to Mark Lewis on Sun Feb 02 2020 20:10:50


    It's the quoting lines using the >'s that not what I expected. It's putting
    your initials on EVERY line.

    oh!

    BTW, did you manually adjust *your* quoting? Where did the "AB>" and "AN>"
    above come from?

    yes, the default editor in sbbs doesn't do traditional FTN quoting so i've been
    manually making it conform and typoed your's... this one is quoted with no modifications other than removing irrelevent lines...


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Tommi Koivula@2:221/360 to August Abolins on Monday, February 03, 2020 12:37:28
    On 2.2.2020 16.00, August Abolins wrote:

    Hi Sysop.

    01 Feb 20 22:09:54, you wrote to All:

    TK >Sy> How does this look?

    No kludges at all!

    I think your system is putting in the MSGID, and there should be an AREA.

    I'm pretty sure HPT is not adding MSGID to in-transit messages.

    AREA is not a kludge. :)

    Is there no CHARS kludge atleast?

    As said: No kludges at all.

    'Tommi

    --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2
    * Origin: nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Rob Swindell@1:103/705 to Tommi Koivula on Monday, February 03, 2020 11:21:47
    Re: checking..
    By: Tommi Koivula to August Abolins on Mon Feb 03 2020 12:37 pm

    I'm pretty sure HPT is not adding MSGID to in-transit messages.

    AREA is not a kludge. :)

    That's a matter for debate! :-)

    digital man

    Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #32:
    FTS = FidoNet Technical Standard
    Norco, CA WX: 54.0F, 16.0% humidity, 14 mph SSE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Rob Swindell on Monday, February 03, 2020 16:03:33
    Re: checking..
    By: Rob Swindell to Tommi Koivula on Mon Feb 03 2020 11:21:47


    I'm pretty sure HPT is not adding MSGID to in-transit messages.

    AREA is not a kludge. :)

    on the one hand, i can agree... on the other, after all this time that FTN has been around, they're no longer kludges but, in fact, defacto standard control lines ;)


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Mark Lewis on Monday, February 03, 2020 17:17:29
    On 03 Feb 20 16:03:33, Mark Lewis said the following to Rob Swindell:

    on the one hand, i can agree... on the other, after all this time that FTN been around, they're no longer kludges but, in fact, defacto standard contr lines ;)

    Jerking off with your left hand or right hand is still jerking off.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Nick Andre on Monday, February 03, 2020 18:21:27
    Re: Re: checking..
    By: Nick Andre to Mark Lewis on Mon Feb 03 2020 17:17:29


    on the one hand, i can agree... on the other, after all this time
    that FTN been around, they're no longer kludges but, in fact,
    defacto standard contr lines ;)

    Jerking off with your left hand or right hand is still jerking off.

    true but has nothing to do with the difference between "kludge lines" and "control lines" ;)


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.59 to Tommi Koivula on Monday, February 03, 2020 18:12:19
    TK >Sy> How does this look?

    No kludges at all!

    I think your system is putting in the MSGID, and there should be an
    AREA.

    I'm pretty sure HPT is not adding MSGID to in-transit messages.

    I stand corrected. I missed that one.


    AREA is not a kludge. :)

    Is there no CHARS kludge atleast?

    As said: No kludges at all.


    THIS message should be slightly different. TZUTC is added. Other than that, DB doesn't entertain anything beyond the bare miniumum requirement of ^AREA and
    ^MSGID, and creates a ^REPLY if relevant.

    --- ---Tear here--- ---
    * Origin: Mans Mazais Eiropas D'Bridge Punkts (2:221/1.59)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.59 to Mark Lewis on Monday, February 03, 2020 18:59:19
    By: Rob Swindell to Tommi Koivula on Mon Feb 03 2020 11:21:47


    I'm pretty sure HPT is not adding MSGID to in-transit messages.

    AREA is not a kludge. :)
    ^^

    DM ?


    on the one hand, i can agree... on the other, after all this time that
    FTN has been around, they're no longer kludges but, in fact, defacto standard control lines ;)

    Perusing through the ftsc docs, there is no specific definition for this stuff except that anything starting with SOH (^) is are called "control paragraphs (also called kludges or kludge lines)" [ref fts-4000, para 2]

    So, that means ^AREA falls within the definition above.

    Therefore, to tell me that the test message had "no kludges" is incorrect. :)

    The ^AREA and ^MSGID kludges seem to be the bare minimum requirement in the header.

    --- D'Bridge 4
    * Origin: Mans Mazais Eiropas D'Bridge Punkts (2:221/1.59)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.59 to Tommi Koivula on Monday, February 03, 2020 19:03:19
    Hi Tommi!


    AREA is not a kludge. :)

    Is there no CHARS kludge atleast?

    As said: No kludges at all.


    Officially incorrect. (See fts-4000, para 2)

    BUT, I know what you ^MEANT! ;)

    --- D'Bridge 4
    * Origin: Mans Mazais Eiropas D'Bridge Punkts (2:221/1.59)
  • From Rob Swindell@1:103/705 to August Abolins on Monday, February 03, 2020 17:39:50
    Re: Re: checking..
    By: August Abolins to Mark Lewis on Mon Feb 03 2020 06:59 pm

    By: Rob Swindell to Tommi Koivula on Mon Feb 03 2020 11:21:47


    I'm pretty sure HPT is not adding MSGID to in-transit messages.

    AREA is not a kludge. :)
    ^^

    DM ?


    on the one hand, i can agree... on the other, after all this time that FTN has been around, they're no longer kludges but, in fact, defacto standard control lines ;)

    Perusing through the ftsc docs, there is no specific definition for this stuff except that anything starting with SOH (^) is are called "control paragraphs (also called kludges or kludge lines)" [ref fts-4000, para 2]

    So, that means ^AREA falls within the definition above.

    It would if the AREA line started with a Ctrl-A (SOH, ^A), but it doesn't. So technically, the AREA line is not a "control paragraph". :-(

    Therefore, to tell me that the test message had "no kludges" is incorrect. :)

    Debatable.

    digital man

    This Is Spinal Tap quote #42:
    What day the Lord created Spinal Tap and couldn't he have rested on that day? Norco, CA WX: 51.5F, 18.0% humidity, 10 mph SW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.59 to Rob Swindell on Monday, February 03, 2020 23:07:40
    So, that means ^AREA falls within the definition above.

    It would if the AREA line started with a Ctrl-A (SOH, ^A), but it
    doesn't. So technically, the AREA line is not a "control paragraph". :-(


    Dang it! (Hanging my head in shame.) I made an incorrect assumption about that one! :(


    Therefore, to tell me that the test message had "no kludges" is
    incorrect.
    :)

    Debatable.

    There *was* a MSGID :) That counts! LOL

    --- D'Bridge 4
    * Origin: Mans Mazais Eiropas D'Bridge Punkts (2:221/1.59)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to August Abolins on Tuesday, February 04, 2020 08:28:01
    Re: Re: checking..
    By: August Abolins to Mark Lewis on Mon Feb 03 2020 18:59:19



    on the one hand, i can agree... on the other, after all this time
    that FTN has been around, they're no longer kludges but, in fact,
    defacto standard control lines ;)

    Perusing through the ftsc docs, there is no specific definition for
    this stuff except that anything starting with SOH (^) is are called "control paragraphs (also called kludges or kludge lines)" [ref
    fts-4000, para 2]

    yes this is true... remember, also, the definition of kludge...


    kludge noun

    \ ˈklüj \
    variants: or kluge \ ˈklüj , US also and British especially ˈkləj ; ˈklü-​jē \
    Definition of kludge

    : a haphazard or makeshift solution to a problem and especially to a computer or programming problem


    back in the day, they were added as above (ie: makeshift) but over time, they have become, as i wrote earlier, standard... i said defacto above but they are also documented so defacto perhaps doesn't come into play any more...

    So, that means ^AREA falls within the definition above.

    yes but only in packed messages... once a message is tossed into a message base, the AREA line is no longer needed... if the message is scanned out, the AREA line is added...

    Therefore, to tell me that the test message had "no kludges" is incorrect.
    :)

    that depends on where you see the message ;)

    The ^AREA and ^MSGID kludges seem to be the bare minimum requirement in the
    header.

    ummmmm... no... the AREA line is an indicator that a message is an echomail message... netmail messages do not have an AREA line... MSGID is not required at all even though some people try to push that it is...


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to August Abolins on Tuesday, February 04, 2020 08:33:34
    Re: Re: checking..
    By: August Abolins to Rob Swindell on Mon Feb 03 2020 23:07:40


    So, that means ^AREA falls within the definition above.

    It would if the AREA line started with a Ctrl-A (SOH, ^A), but it
    doesn't. So technically, the AREA line is not a "control
    paragraph". :-(

    Dang it! (Hanging my head in shame.) I made an incorrect
    assumption about that one! :(

    you're not the first one to do that... many FTN coders have done the same thing... some even put ^A with AREA as well so software has to detect both, AREA: and ^AAREA:...


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Mark Lewis on Tuesday, February 04, 2020 08:42:38
    On 03 Feb 20 18:21:27, Mark Lewis said the following to Nick Andre:

    Jerking off with your left hand or right hand is still jerking off.

    true but has nothing to do with the difference between "kludge lines" and "control lines" ;)

    I stand by my self-educated statement. If someone is obsessed with kludge lines (left hand) or control lines (right hand), then its self-gratification.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to Mark Lewis on Tuesday, February 04, 2020 08:51:04
    On 04 Feb 20 08:33:34, Mark Lewis said the following to August Abolins:

    you're not the first one to do that... many FTN coders have done the same thing... some even put ^A with AREA as well so software has to detect both, AREA: and ^AAREA:...

    Oh wise one, at first I did not believe this, until I quickly checked the D'Bridge tosser code. And yes, it checks both.

    Since that code was unchanged since the verrrrrry early 90's, maybe even late 80's, I'm guessing the introduction of AREA was not straightforward.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Nick Andre on Tuesday, February 04, 2020 09:31:08
    Re: Re: checking..
    By: Nick Andre to Mark Lewis on Tue Feb 04 2020 08:42:38


    Jerking off with your left hand or right hand is still jerking off.

    true but has nothing to do with the difference between "kludge lines" and
    "control lines" ;)

    I stand by my self-educated statement. If someone is obsessed with kludge
    lines (left hand) or control lines (right hand), then its self-gratification.

    :hugewidegrin:


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to Nick Andre on Tuesday, February 04, 2020 09:51:06
    Re: Re: checking..
    By: Nick Andre to Mark Lewis on Tue Feb 04 2020 08:51:04


    you're not the first one to do that... many FTN coders have done the same
    thing... some even put ^A with AREA as well so software has to detect both, AREA: and ^AAREA:...

    Oh wise one, at first I did not believe this, until I quickly checked the
    D'Bridge tosser code. And yes, it checks both.

    :)

    Since that code was unchanged since the verrrrrry early 90's, maybe even
    late 80's, I'm guessing the introduction of AREA was not straightforward.

    i remember reading about some messages going missing... research turned up that
    some tossers were using ^AAREA which was throwing some tossers off... i don't remember if those messages were being deleted or if some tosser were putting them in the netmail area since they didn't find an AREA line... since then, yeah, all tossers look for both formats and that need was also documented in an
    FTSC document...

    FTS-0004 doesn't mention ^A in relation to the AREA line...


    http://ftsc.org/docs/fsc-0068.001 (written in 1992) has a nice paragraph about it...


    Required control information:
    ============================
    AREA: An AREA tag is what makes the difference between netmail and
    echomail. The AREA line must be the first line in an echomail message's
    body. An AREA line's format is simply:

    AREA:<areaname>

    The AREA tag is specifically _not_ preceded by a ^a. It might be a good
    idea for an application to allow for but not produce AREA tags with ^a prefixes.


    there is another document i remember that is mainly about things discovered when processing mail and how to deal with them... more of an informal "here's what was found and how to handle it" type thing... i can't find it real quickly
    though... not that it matters but yeah ;)


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/360 to mark lewis on Tuesday, February 04, 2020 18:43:50
    On 04/02/2020 8:28 a.m., mark lewis : August Abolins wrote:

    "control paragraphs (also called kludges or kludge lines)" [ref
    fts-4000, para 2]

    yes this is true... remember, also, the definition of kludge...


    kludge noun

    \ ˈklüj \
    variants: or kluge \ ˈklüj , US also and British especially ˈkləj ; ˈklü-​jē \

    Definition of kludge

    : a haphazard or makeshift solution to a problem and especially to a
    computer or programming problem


    Yes, I've always interpreted the use of kludges in fidonet as an
    after-thought or an add-on to accommodate new practices, or progress.

    The ftsc docs always lag behind as to what's *really* going on and how
    people define things.

    But as you can see, even the ftsc just throws in the term kludge without further reference or explanation.


    The ^AREA and ^MSGID kludges seem to be the bare minimum
    requirement in the header.

    ummmmm... no... the AREA line is an indicator that a message is
    an echomail message... netmail messages do not have an AREA
    line... MSGID is not required at all even though some people try
    to push that it is...

    Yes. MSGID doesn't seem to be a "requirement" according to ftsc docs.
    But shouldn't it be, by now?

    Technically, Subj and To and From wouldn't be required either?




    --
    Quoted with Reformator/Quoter. Info = https://tinyurl.com/sxnhuxc

    --- TB68.4.1/Win7 (the abbr. string!)
    * Origin: nntp://rbb.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland (2:221/360.0)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to August Abolins on Tuesday, February 04, 2020 12:16:00
    On 04 Feb 20 18:43:50, August Abolins said the following to Mark Lewis:

    Yes. MSGID doesn't seem to be a "requirement" according to ftsc docs.
    But shouldn't it be, by now?

    MSGID/REPLY is a nonsense kludge only somewhat useful for message-threading. It also has a laughable joke of a scheme for attempting to prevent duplicates.

    In the 90's and into the early 2000's, nobody cared two shits about it until some systems started using a tosser written by lazy programmers who based their dupe-checking code around it. Suddenly systems who didn't have it were told to drink the kool-aid or find another feed.

    Around the same time, some fell in love with threaded replies and by naturally-occuring arrogance, those that did not have this stupid kludge pair along with TZUTC, PID/TID and CHRS were flamed with running "shit software".

    That explains why we have some in this echo who masturbate all over any test-message that doesn't suit their self-imposed stroke-fest fantasy.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From mark lewis@1:3634/12 to August Abolins on Tuesday, February 04, 2020 13:21:13
    Re: checking..
    By: August Abolins to mark lewis on Tue Feb 04 2020 18:43:50


    Definition of kludge

    : a haphazard or makeshift solution to a problem and especially to a
    computer or programming problem


    Yes, I've always interpreted the use of kludges in fidonet as an after-thought or an add-on to accommodate new practices, or progress.

    yep... something makeshift to get things to work and they were just never changed from the form chosen back then...

    The ftsc docs always lag behind as to what's *really* going on and
    how people define things.

    the FTSC will always lag behind since they document current practice...

    But as you can see, even the ftsc just throws in the term kludge
    without further reference or explanation.

    that's due to the writers of the documents and FTSC members accepting the provided writing... we (yes, i'm a member of the FTSC) do somethimes adjust things but not too often...

    The ^AREA and ^MSGID kludges seem to be the bare minimum
    requirement in the header.

    ummmmm... no... the AREA line is an indicator that a message is
    an echomail message... netmail messages do not have an AREA
    line... MSGID is not required at all even though some people try
    to push that it is...

    Yes. MSGID doesn't seem to be a "requirement" according to ftsc docs.
    But shouldn't it be, by now?

    there's still a lot of software used in FTNs that don't or cannot create MSGID or REPLY lines... plus, if you use MSGID, you must also create a REPLY line when replying to a message with a MSGID...

    Technically, Subj and To and From wouldn't be required either?

    they're in the binary header along with the time stamp... control lines are added below the binary header in the message body... control lines can reside anywhere within the message body as long as they start on the very first column
    are are hidden behind the ^A character... control lines do not have to reside at the very top of the message body but they generally do for various reasons... in fact, there was one software package that actually moved control lines to the top and implemented two other control lines to indicate the message body... that software is still used in fidonet today but the moving of the control lines and the use of the message body wrapping control lines is not
    seen very often if it is seen at all these days...


    )\/(ark
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: SouthEast Star Mail HUB - SESTAR (1:3634/12)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.59 to Nick Andre on Tuesday, February 04, 2020 20:38:27
    Hello Nick!

    MSGID/REPLY is a nonsense kludge only somewhat useful for message-threading.
    It also has a laughable joke of a scheme for attempting to prevent duplicates.

    But threading is so handy when one needs to trace the flow of a conversation. For example, OXP can follow a thread with the arrow controls, plus it can also produce a nice graphical tree representation if desired. Something like *that*
    is a good improvement for echomail.

    Without threading, echomail is just one long toilet roll not unlike facebook posts. ;) Do we want echomail to be like that?

    Regarding dupechecking.. what other way is there to check? Is it simply by matching a name or date exactly, against a log? Is it by creating a local hash
    of part of the incoming message and comparing it against a previous hash? Or,
    another way?

    MSGID seems be an efficient compact solution to the problem.

    The MSGID is also pretty handy for reporting or identifying a specific message if necessary.

    In the 90's and into the early 2000's, nobody cared two shits about it

    Well, in the same 90's and early 2000's there were probably not too many systems to care about. ;)


    Around the same time, some fell in love with threaded replies and by naturally-occuring arrogance, those that did not have this stupid kludge pair
    along with TZUTC, PID/TID and CHRS were flamed with running "shit software".

    The flaming is a shame. But the real winners are demonstrated by the software that ends up widely used.

    --- D'Bridge 4
    * Origin: Mans Mazais Eiropas D'Bridge Punkts (2:221/1.59)
  • From Nick Andre@1:229/426 to August Abolins on Tuesday, February 04, 2020 21:36:53
    On 04 Feb 20 20:38:27, August Abolins said the following to Nick Andre:

    But threading is so handy when one needs to trace the flow of a conversatio For example, OXP can follow a thread with the arrow controls, plus it can a produce a nice graphical tree representation if desired. Something like *that* is a good improvement for echomail.

    Meh, threading is a preference in my opinion. I can see it helping out when an echo gets a ton of traffic... Now when I do a "new scan", I can scan all areas and catch up in under a minute. Theres just not that much traffic anymore.

    Regarding dupechecking.. what other way is there to check? Is it simply by matching a name or date exactly, against a log? Is it by creating a local

    The Seen-by lines, Path line, a CRC computation of the message header, topping off with a small CRC cache database per area. D'Bridge has done it this way since 1989. The only addition I made was to trap circular Path lines.

    If I had a choice which "control line" is most important aside from AREA, it would have to be the Seen-by lines. By carefully parsing these in both the toss-cycle and the scan-cycle, most problems with duplicates are caught there. A computation has to be done anyway to add a system to the Seen-by lines.

    I'm sure tossers other than D'Bridge use the same approach. I think GEcho 1.20 comes to mind. Maybe Fmail. TBBS/Flame also did it good. I am redundantly-linked to at least four systems... even those who once tried to flame me for running "shit software" but happily poll here for mail like clockwork.

    The flaming is a shame. But the real winners are demonstrated by the softwa that ends up widely used.

    I'm a fan of Mystic and Synchronet for bringing newcomer/returning Sysops to the hobby. Both are not my cup of tea but I like the efforts. And by association, both keep those certain few Linux-obssesed egotistic individuals busy with their hobby system to bother complaining about what OS or software someone else is running.

    Nick

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)
  • From Sean Dennis@1:18/200 to Nick Andre on Wednesday, February 05, 2020 13:57:28
    Nick Andre wrote to Mark Lewis <=-

    I stand by my self-educated statement. If someone is obsessed with
    kludge lines (left hand) or control lines (right hand), then its self-gratification.

    Fidonetters have been known for verbal masturbation.

    Later,
    Sean

    ... A closed mouth gathers no feet.
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

    --- Maximus/2 3.01
    * Origin: Outpost BBS * bbs.outpostbbs.net:10123 (1:18/200)
  • From Sean Dennis@1:18/200 to Nick Andre on Wednesday, February 05, 2020 13:59:30
    Nick Andre wrote to August Abolins <=-

    That explains why we have some in this echo who masturbate all over any test-message that doesn't suit their self-imposed stroke-fest fantasy.

    You're killing me, Smalls.

    Later,
    Sean

    ... Computers are unreliable but humans are even more unreliable.
    ___ MultiMail/Linux v0.52

    --- Maximus/2 3.01
    * Origin: Outpost BBS * bbs.outpostbbs.net:10123 (1:18/200)
  • From Charles P. Adkins@1:229/200 to Sysop on Friday, February 07, 2020 20:38:00
    Sysop wrote to All <=-

    How does this look?

    --- ---Tear here --- ---
    * Origin: (2:221/1.59)


    ^ Like that.



    ... Computer Hacker wanted. Must have own axe.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: electronic chicken bbs - bbs.electronicchicken.com (1:229/200)
  • From Charles P. Adkins@1:229/200 to August Abolins on Friday, February 07, 2020 20:39:00
    August Abolins wrote to mark lewis <=-

    it looks like you need to fix your name... using "sysop" is just ugh in distributed areas... especially since any replies will trigger for all sysops in the area...



    Better? :)

    Yep.



    ... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    * Origin: electronic chicken bbs - bbs.electronicchicken.com (1:229/200)
  • From August Abolins@2:221/1.59 to Charles P. Adkins on Friday, February 07, 2020 22:42:46
    @TZUTC: -0500
    @MSGID: 1900.fido_fidotest@1:229/200 22a35188
    @REPLY: 2:221/1.59 153a2d58
    @PID: Synchronet 3.17c-Linux Aug 27 2019 GCC 5.4.0
    @TID: SBBSecho 3.09-Linux r3.139 Aug 27 2019 GCC 5.4.0
    @CHRS: ASCII 1
    Sysop wrote to All <=-

    How does this look?

    --- ---Tear here --- ---
    * Origin: (2:221/1.59)


    ^ Like that.


    "Sysop" was the default setting. I missed that in my initial runs.

    There are a few other issues with this program that don't quite appeal to me, so I probably won't be "testing" it much longer.

    --- D'Bridge 4
    * Origin: Mans Mazais Eiropas D'Bridge Punkts (2:221/1.59)
  • From Daryl Stout@1:19/33 to AUGUST ABOLINS on Tuesday, February 04, 2020 22:43:00
    August,

    It's the quoting lines using the >'s that not what I expected. It's putting AA>your initials on EVERY line.

    That's the way I have OLX set up over here.

    Daryl


    * OLX 1.53 * Bad Day: Your Income Tax Refund Check Bounces.
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Win32
    * Origin: The Thunderbolt BBS - tbolt.synchro.net (1:19/33)
  • From Daryl Stout@1:19/33 to NICK ANDRE on Tuesday, February 04, 2020 22:44:00
    Nick,

    Jerking off with your left hand or right hand is still jerking off.

    That's done on the sperm of the moment, especially if one is teste.


    Daryl


    * OLX 1.53 * Bad officials are elected by good citizens who don't vote
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Win32
    * Origin: The Thunderbolt BBS - tbolt.synchro.net (1:19/33)
  • From Daryl Stout@1:19/33 to SEAN DENNIS on Thursday, February 06, 2020 10:18:00
    Fidonetters have been known for verbal masturbation.

    I thought a masturbator was one who could get the worm and the fish on
    and off the hook in record time. <G>

    Daryl


    * OLX 1.53 * Cakes: 66 cents. Upside Down Cakes: 99 cents.
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Win32
    * Origin: The Thunderbolt BBS - tbolt.synchro.net (1:19/33)
  • From August.Abolins@2:333/808.7 to August Abolins on Thursday, February 13, 2020 00:46:02
    Strange. But interesting.
    A clever implementation.
    Name goes out with a "." inbetween.
    A little small with my laptop screen. But doable in a pinch if required.




    --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20170303
    * Origin: ----> Point Of VeleNo BBs (http://www.velenobbs.net) (2:333/808.7)
  • From Jon Justvig@1:298/26 to Sysop on Monday, February 24, 2020 23:09:52
    Re: checking..
    By: Sysop to All on Sat Feb 01 2020 06:56 pm

    How does this look?

    It's a question.

    Sincerely,
    Jon Justvig
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Stepping Stone BBS -- vintagebbsing.com (1:298/26)
  • From Fernando Miculan@4:902/19 to Sysop on Monday, March 30, 2020 21:02:24
    Hola Sysop!

    El sbado 01 de febrero de 2020, Sysop le escribi a All:

    How does this look?

    Very nice! =)

    Saludos!
    .:Fercho:.
    LW8DFM
    --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20120515
    * Origin: ..::Fercho BBS::.. Telnet: ferchobbs.ddns.net:2323 (4:902/19)
  • From Jonathan Hodges@1:220/30 to Fernando Miculan on Wednesday, April 01, 2020 03:47:14
    I don't get it. Did I setup my base wrong?

    Jonathan Hodges aka Crackerjak - SysOp of the Second Coming BBS scbbs.ddns.net:6400 - 150+ door games RetroNet 80:774/82 FidoNet 1:22/30
    C=Net 64:500/12 PiNet 314:314/240 AmigaNet 39:902/531
    --- CNet/5
    * Origin: Second Coming :: scbbs.ddns.net:6400 (1:220/30)
  • From Richard Menedetter@2:310/31 to Jonathan Hodges on Wednesday, April 01, 2020 12:40:28
    Hi Jonathan!

    01 Apr 2020 03:47, from Jonathan Hodges -> Fernando Miculan:

    @MSGID: 1:220/30@fidonet 5e846325
    @PID: CNet PRO 5.21b
    I don't get it. Did I setup my base wrong?

    Jonathan Hodges aka Crackerjak - SysOp of the Second Coming BBS scbbs.ddns.net:6400 - 150+ door games RetroNet 80:774/82 FidoNet 1:22/30
    C=Net 64:500/12 PiNet 314:314/240 AmigaNet 39:902/531 SEEN-BY: 1/19 16/0 103/705 123/130 131 142/799 154/10 50 201/0 203/0 SEEN-BY: 203/124 220/30 221/0 1 229/101 426 230/0 240/5832 261/38
    280/464
    SEEN-BY: 280/5003 5555 288/100 310/31 320/119 219 322/0 756 396/45
    423/120
    SEEN-BY: 712/848 770/1 2452/250
    @PATH: 220/30 322/0 320/219 203/0 280/464

    CU, Ricsi

    ... We'e all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars.
    --- GoldED+/LNX
    * Origin: MCSE - Minesweeper Consultant and Solitaire Expert. (2:310/31)
  • From Fernando Miculan@4:902/19 to Jonathan Hodges on Wednesday, April 01, 2020 12:34:52
    Hola Jonathan!

    El mircoles 01 de abril de 2020, Jonathan Hodges le escribi a Fernando Miculan:

    I don't get it. Did I setup my base wrong?

    I dont know. Why?

    Saludos!
    .:Fercho:.
    LW8DFM
    --- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20120515
    * Origin: ..::Fercho BBS::.. Telnet: ferchobbs.ddns.net:2323 (4:902/19)